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Started by peter_speckhard, April 21, 2024, 02:08:06 PM

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Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 02:58:11 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 02:40:00 PMWould flying the flag of Israel express your support for the killing of 34,000 Palestinians, the majority of whom are women and children?
Would flying the Palestinian flag express your support for the raping and killing of women, the slaughter of children, the taking of hostages and their mistreatment? Would it support aiding Hamas to prepare for the next killing, raping, and kidnapping spree?

There has been many calls for a permanent cease fire. Is Hamas interested in a permanent cease fire that it would also abide by, or only a cease fire until it is ready to resume raping and killing Israelis? The last I heard, Hamas has as its stated goal the genocide of Jews, has it changed its goals?
There is a difference between Hamas and Palestinians. It would be a bit like lumping all Americans under a KKK umbrella during their glory days; or that all Christians are like Fred Phelps. The Palestinian people are suffering under both the Hamas regime and the Israeli military and policies.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: RF on April 21, 2024, 06:34:16 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:09:36 PMTo reiterate, you and I are culpable for the murder of innocent Palestinians.

Why?  It's not a tool or its supplier that harms people. It's the user that acts inappropriately. In other words, I am not a proponent of banning ball bats, table knives, sharp pencils or aircraft.
You might be willing to ban bats to a "Beating People with Bats" club; or a "Knife Killing Klub." A group that makes it clear that they would use such things as weapons to hurt and kill other people might give you pause about providing with items they have said they will use as weapons.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Charles Austin

In other complex conversations in the secular world, this humble correspondent has been accused of "being a lawyer" or "thinking like a lawyer."
   I believe that 50 percent of the time, I can take the comment as a compliment and 50 percent of the time I must take it as an attempt to assign me to schmuckdom. 
   My experience with lawyers is primarily watching them in courtrooms and town council meetings in New York and New Jersey and calling them for explanations of the law or pending legislation. They frequently talk tough out there. 
   The Minnesota lawyer who recently handled estate planning for Beloved Spouse and myself (what happens if one or both of us is trampled by a moose and left dead or incompetent) was a nice Lutheran lady who explained things well and produced a number of documents so that our daughter can take charge should a moose, bear or the infirmities of age make us less brilliant than we are now.
   My favorite tv lawyer? Alan Shore, played by James Spader, in Boston Legal.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

John Mundinger

Quote from: Rob Morris on April 21, 2024, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:50:28 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 06:39:59 PMOK, if we are to make our aid contingent on their rules of engagement, how they conduct themselves, then we need to tell them what we believe they should do. How then would you suggest they oppose Hamas who have consistently broken every cease fire, consistently rejected any two-state solution, who have waged war, including the use of sexual violence as a tactic of war in a way that is both consistent with your understanding of just war theory and which protects the Israeli population? You want to dictate their conduct, what are your terms?

Israel has every right to defend it self.  But, Israel does not have the right to provoke its adversaries.  And, Israel does not have a right to violate the principles of just war.  When Israel chooses to violate the principles of just war, Israel is guilty of murder and we are accessories.  If they choose to violate those principles, they are free to deal with Hamas however they choose - but they should do so without our support.  And, if Iran chooses to launch missiles in their direction, we don't have to help Israel shoot them down. 

To repeat.  You and I are not accountable for Hamas' sins.  We are accountable for Israel's sins.



Would you be willing to enumerate the principles of just war theory as you espouse it? Further, if you are willing, I'd be curious to know which principles you believe Israel to be violating and how.

Just some quick points, please, to summarize where you're coming from.

Given the reference to "just war" in the Confessions, I'd start with Augustine's and Thomas Aquinas' teaching regarding just war.

In practical terms, I think about just cause; provocation; last resort; proportionality; peaceful objective; and, refraining from doing evil.  Israel has a just cause but fails on all of the other benchmarks.

And, it should be noted, that the United States violated the principles of just war in Vietnam and Iraq and our behavior in Afghanistan was suspect.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on April 21, 2024, 07:15:20 PMWell, I guess there's something to be said for continuity. I stop reading for a few days and come back to see that Charles is still being a schmuck.  ::)

Another post that demonstrates your mastery of the art of projection.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

Quote from: John_Hannah on April 21, 2024, 09:22:16 PMI do recognize that Hamas seems to set up the battle so that civilians and non combatants are deliberately in the way. Israel, however, has the superior force and can afford to be more careful. In the long run it is in Israel's interest to not further alienate Palestine civilians.

I share the concern about Hamas using civilians as shields.  But, I also wonder - given the fact that Gaza is a ghetto maintained by Israel - whether there is anywhere that Hamas might operate within Gaza where civilians would not be "shields".
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Matt Hummel

I suggest that all the Western liberal folks who aren't antisemitic but are merely anti Zionist, etc. take the time  to listen to this: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0oinEcmGtH8VSjv4yUnhqE?si=z7SGnTn6RGOrP9LgQxvM1w

The cleavage that folks want to make between Hamas and the poor beset Palestinians is not so easy to make. And the almost century of antisemitism on the part of the  Palestinians is interestingly history. Especially the part when the NAZIs told them don't worry when we are talking antisemitism since you guys are really aryan.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

John Mundinger

#52
Quote from: Matt Hummel on April 22, 2024, 08:16:05 AMAnd the almost century of antisemitism on the part of the  Palestinians is interestingly history.

Just as interesting as the antipalestinian on the part of Israel.  The reality is that, absent a two-state solution, Israel has not legitimacy, pursuant to the UN resolution that established Israel as a state.  The reality also is that neither Israel nor the Palestinians have ever made the honest commitment to a peaceful, two-state solution.  And, the situation has not been helped because America's support for Israel is, in part, informed by those who have less interest in Israel and the Jewish people than in the destruction of the Al Aqsa Mosque to facilitate Armageddon. 
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

D. Engebretson

Quote from: Weedon on April 21, 2024, 06:47:01 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on April 21, 2024, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: RF on April 21, 2024, 05:47:33 PMIf you choose to fly a flag it should be the flag of the state and/or country in which you live. Flying flags of other countries generally signifies you don't like or respect where you have chosen to live, or that you're just virtue signaling.

Yes.  I agree with this.

I don't. I have a friend who's German in heritage. Every once in a while, he'll prepare a German feast at his house and he'll fly the German flag outside to welcome us. It's not virtue signalling or disrespect for the USA; it's just celebrating his heritage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a Mexican flag outside his place before a Mexican feast he was serving up. Let's not be so quick to be judgy.

Likewise when I display a small tactical patch of the Scottish flag on a backpack.  I'm part Scot-Irish. I am not displaying anything more than a celebration of my heritage.

And I proudly wear a patch of the US flag on my fire department uniform.   
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

peter_speckhard

It seems to me Israel is what decolonization looks like, for several reasons. First, the region has been under Imperial domination without exception since ancient days, be it Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Ottoman Turkey, Britain, or whoever. There has never been a non-Jewish, independent nation of Palestine. The Jews who established Israel and were on-and-off independent or a vassal state were eradicated or forcibly removed from their ancestral homeland by the Romans c. 70 AD and dispersed throughout the Empire into Africa, Asia, and Europe, but especially over time in Europe. They were dispersed by an Empire centered in Europe, and the most recent European empire gave them the right to return and establish an independent nation, with all the rights and privileges of an independent nation. It was immediately attacked, but gained territory from its attackers, a fairly normal feature of the history of nations. It has established diplomatic relationships and allied itself with the United States, as independent nations can do when it seems prudent. Today it is doing the equivalent of hunting down and killing Osama bin Laden's organization. Thus, a people of shared culture and heritage long under domination by other peoples has regained possession of the land from which they were removed by an imperial power, and now they are ensuring that they never come under domination again by eliminating demonstrated existential threats to their continued independent existence.


John Mundinger

#55
Quote from: peter_speckhard on April 22, 2024, 09:19:36 AMIt seems to me Israel is what decolonization looks like, for several reasons. First, the region has been under Imperial domination without exception since ancient days, be it Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Ottoman Turkey, Britain, or whoever. There has never been a non-Jewish, independent nation of Palestine. The Jews who established Israel and were on-and-off independent or a vassal state were eradicated or forcibly removed from their ancestral homeland by the Romans c. 70 AD and dispersed throughout the Empire into Africa, Asia, and Europe, but especially over time in Europe. They were dispersed by an Empire centered in Europe, and the most recent European empire gave them the right to return and establish an independent nation, with all the rights and privileges of an independent nation. It was immediately attacked, but gained territory from its attackers, a fairly normal feature of the history of nations. It has established diplomatic relationships and allied itself with the United States, as independent nations can do when it seems prudent. Today it is doing the equivalent of hunting down and killing Osama bin Laden's organization. Thus, a people of shared culture and heritage long under domination by other peoples has regained possession of the land from which they were removed by an imperial power, and now they are ensuring that they never come under domination again by eliminating demonstrated existential threats to their continued independent existence.



That understanding does not quite square with U.N. Resolution 181.  And, I'd suggest that, pursuant to that resolution, the United States should have either recognized both states or recognized neither.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Matt Hummel

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 22, 2024, 08:47:29 AM
Quote from: Matt Hummel on April 22, 2024, 08:16:05 AMAnd the almost century of antisemitism on the part of the  Palestinians is interestingly history.

Just as interesting as the antipalestinian on the part of Israel.  The reality is that, absent a two-state solution, Israel has not legitimacy, pursuant to the UN resolution that established Israel as a state.  The reality also is that neither Israel nor the Palestinians have ever made the honest commitment to a peaceful, two-state solution.  And, the situation has not been helped because America's support for Israel is, in part, informed by those who have less interest in Israel and the Jewish people than in the destruction of the Al Aqsa Mosque to facilitate Armageddon. 

At least twice the Palestinian leadership could have had a peaceful 2 state solution. But they refused. In large part because of fear of their own people. I recall from my youth the definition of a Palestinian moderate being someone who has run out of bullets. Or the famous quote, "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

RF

Quote from: Weedon on April 21, 2024, 06:47:01 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on April 21, 2024, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: RF on April 21, 2024, 05:47:33 PMIf you choose to fly a flag it should be the flag of the state and/or country in which you live. Flying flags of other countries generally signifies you don't like or respect where you have chosen to live, or that you're just virtue signaling.

Yes.  I agree with this.

I don't. I have a friend who's German in heritage. Every once in a while, he'll prepare a German feast at his house and he'll fly the German flag outside to welcome us. It's not virtue signalling or disrespect for the USA; it's just celebrating his heritage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a Mexican flag outside his place before a Mexican feast he was serving up. Let's not be so quick to be judgy.
I mostly agree with you. My hope is that if your friend decides to serve "low country boil" he is careful about his choice of flags; he probably should pass on The Stars and Bars. 😉

John Mundinger

Quote from: Matt Hummel on April 22, 2024, 09:43:33 AM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 22, 2024, 08:47:29 AM
Quote from: Matt Hummel on April 22, 2024, 08:16:05 AMAnd the almost century of antisemitism on the part of the  Palestinians is interestingly history.

Just as interesting as the antipalestinian on the part of Israel.  The reality is that, absent a two-state solution, Israel has not legitimacy, pursuant to the UN resolution that established Israel as a state.  The reality also is that neither Israel nor the Palestinians have ever made the honest commitment to a peaceful, two-state solution.  And, the situation has not been helped because America's support for Israel is, in part, informed by those who have less interest in Israel and the Jewish people than in the destruction of the Al Aqsa Mosque to facilitate Armageddon. 

At least twice the Palestinian leadership could have had a peaceful 2 state solution. But they refused. In large part because of fear of their own people. I recall from my youth the definition of a Palestinian moderate being someone who has run out of bullets. Or the famous quote, "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Robert Fulghum got it right.  We all learned important life lessons in Kindergarten.  Unfortunately, most folks begin forgetting those lessons when they enter first grade.

The Israel/Palestinian conflict is an excellent example of two parties both of whom insist on defying the axiom that "two wrongs don't make a right".  You and I are not accountable for the bad behavior of the Palestinians.  We are accountable for Israel's bad behavior and, just like the Palestinians, Israel is aggressively behaving wrongly to prove that it is right.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

peter_speckhard

Virtually every nation on earth has defied some UN resolution. That's because sometimes the UN is wrong or the interests of the international community conflict too severely with the interests of a particular nation. There is no moral imperative to obey UN resolutions.

Our support for Israel has included funding and shared technology for things like the Iron Dome that has saved countless lives. No nation in the region faces an existential threat from Israel. Israel does face an existential threat from some other nations. If Iran left Israel alone, Israel would be happy to leave Iran alone. But if Israel left Iran alone, Iran would not be happy to leave Israel alone. There is a much larger movement/worldview that permeates the region that says the existence of Israel as a Jewish state cannot be tolerated. I want nothing to do with that movement or worldview.   

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