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Started by peter_speckhard, April 21, 2024, 02:08:06 PM

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peter_speckhard

Several years ago I published an essay about religious freedom in an LCMS essay contest called "Free to be Faithul" which is preserved here:

http://redeemernashville.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2014_FreeToBeFaithful_Essays_v3-1.pdf

In the essay, among many other things, I say, "We should
use the gift of citizenship in such a way that American
Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others know they can count
on the people of the LCMS to stand up for the religious
freedom of all Americans of all religions."

My question to this forum is this: do you think your house/car/person would likely be free of vandalism if you displayed an Israeli flag? If not, what steps should we take to ensure that Jewish (Zionist or otherwise) are free from intimidation and continue to view the United States as a place where they can practice their faith without fear?

I can see how it would be a provocation to fly the flag of a nation with whom our nation was at war, but Israel is an ally with whom we are not at war. A Jewish person should feel as free to fly an Israeli flag as a person Swedish, Mexican, Korean heritage feels free to fly the flag of a foreign country in America. But I don't think they likely feel that way right now. What can Lutherans do to change that fact? I thought of actually testing my question by flying an Israeli flag, but A) I don't know if Jews would find that helpful or offensive or what, and B) I don't want to become embroiled in a news story. Would you fly an Israeli flag at your house simply as an act of solidarity? 

Dan Fienen

Rabbi Elie Buechler at Columbia University, New York has advised Jewish students to leave campus and go home because the Columbia University Public Safety and NYPD cannot guarantee their safety on campus with the ongoing extreme antisemitic demonstrations. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/columbia-rabbi-warns-jewish-students-to-go-home-don-t-come-back-to-campus-because-of-extreme-antisemitism/ar-AA1nouyc.

 
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

John Mundinger

Would flying the flag of Israel express your support for the killing of 34,000 Palestinians, the majority of whom are women and children?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Dan Fienen

#3
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 02:40:00 PMWould flying the flag of Israel express your support for the killing of 34,000 Palestinians, the majority of whom are women and children?
Would flying the Palestinian flag express your support for the raping and killing of women, the slaughter of children, the taking of hostages and their mistreatment? Would it support aiding Hamas to prepare for the next killing, raping, and kidnapping spree?

There has been many calls for a permanent cease fire. Is Hamas interested in a permanent cease fire that it would also abide by, or only a cease fire until it is ready to resume raping and killing Israelis? The last I heard, Hamas has as its stated goal the genocide of Jews, has it changed its goals?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

John Mundinger

Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 02:58:11 PMWould flying the Palestinian flag express your support for the raping and killing of women, the slaughter of children, the taking of hostages and their mistreatment? Would it support aiding Hamas to prepare for the next killing, raping, and kidnapping spree?

There has been many calls for a permanent cease fire. Is Hamas interested in a permanent cease fire that it would also abide by, or only a cease fire until it is ready to resume raping and killing Israelis? The last I heard, Hamas has as its stated goal the genocide of Jews, has it changed its goals?

"What about" doesn't answer the question that I asked.

We claim to be an ally of Israel.  Thus, we are culpable for Israel's failures to comply with the principles of just war.  We make no claim to be allied with the Palestinians and, thus, are not culpable for their bad behavior.

In the matter of calls for cease fire, Israel has been as recalcitrant as Hamas.  Likewise, in the matter of calls for a two-state solution - as mandated by the same U.N. resolution that established the state of Israel - Israel has also been as recalcitrant as the Palestinians.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

George Rahn

#5
These nations have their sovereignty.  I don't support either group.  Do they support us?  We get criticism from both Israel and Palestine.  So I say we remove support.

Charles Austin

I don't fly flags, especially national flags, from any country, including the one I live in. 
I did wear a flag badge in Switzerland one year during the Escalade holiday. But that commemorated a country - Switzerland - which no longer existed in the way it existed during the event commerated, celebrating not being invaded by Savoy, a country that no longer exists.
And the badge got me free chocolate treats during the holiday.
I don't fly or wear flags. Should Christians flaunt nationalism?
And how would flying Israel's flag be understood? In Indiana? In New York City?  In San Diego? In Detroit?
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 02:40:00 PMWould flying the flag of Israel express your support for the killing of 34,000 Palestinians, the majority of whom are women and children?
I do support the minimum amount of violence necessary to eliminate Hamas, but that wouldn't be the reason I would fly the flag. Many American Jews are also against that war. In my context, flying the flag would support Israeli and Jewish people in America who are legally here and not representing any enemy of America, but still being made to feel as though they are not welcome or safe in the U.S. And it is not by a few random slack-jaws but by people who wield real, institutional authority. It would also establish that we will not tolerate people who handle their disagreements via intimidation and disruption. If you disagree and want to debate, fine. If you disagree and want block interstates, glue yourself places, occupy universities, shout epithets at Jews, etc. then nuts to you. 

Dan Fienen

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 03:14:48 PM"What about" doesn't answer the question that I asked.

We claim to be an ally of Israel.  Thus, we are culpable for Israel's failures to comply with the principles of just war.  We make no claim to be allied with the Palestinians and, thus, are not culpable for their bad behavior.

In the matter of calls for cease fire, Israel has been as recalcitrant as Hamas.  Likewise, in the matter of calls for a two-state solution - as mandated by the same U.N. resolution that established the state of Israel - Israel has also been as recalcitrant as the Palestinians.
What do you suggest? Or do you simply want your (US hands) to be clean so we sever ties with Israel and let them live or die on their own? We deplore what Hamas did on Oct. 7, but we deplore any effective response the Israel might take?

Meanwhile, what about the Jewish students at Columbia? Since they are Jewish, and Israel, whose actions you deplore, is also Jewish, should those Jewish students be allowed to be run off campus? Should they be forced to either flee their education, or face intimidation, calls for their killing, harassment?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

peter_speckhard

#9
Also, most of the protests are not just anti-Israel, they are pro-Hamas, which is reprehensible in the extreme.

Charles Austin

Peter:
If you disagree and want block interstates, glue yourself places, occupy universities, shout epithets at Jews, etc. then nuts to you.

Me:
Yeah, those kinds of things - dumping crates of overtaxed tea into Boston Harbor, illegally hiding fugitive slaves (the legal property of someone), stopping production at union-busting plants, sitting at lunch counters when you are not the race allowed to eat there, yelling at people going to military recruiting offices - those kinds of illegal disruptions never work.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

peter_speckhard

Action taken against an enemy— disrupting the slave trade to protest slavery, or disrupting trade to protest tariffs, are a) on point to what is being protested, and b) depend for their validity on the morality of the cause. Blocking major highways in support of an Islamist terrorist organization is in no way akin to the Underground Railroad or Boston Tea Party.

Charles Austin

Peter writes:
Blocking major highways in support of an Islamist terrorist organization is in no way akin to the Underground Railroad or Boston Tea Party.

I comment:
Oh? Why?
What do you think the English colonialists thought of the Sons of Liberty?
What do you think slave owners thought of those disrupting their lives and property by not returning fugitive slaves?
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

RDPreus

I don't presently fly any flags, but I could gladly fly the flags of the United States, Canada, and Norway.  I am an American of Norwegian descent who lives next to the Canadian border.  If I had a connection to Israel, I might fly an Israeli flag.  It's a shame that Jews and supporters of Israel have been singled out for intimidation on the part of the fashionable left in America.  I am by no means a Zionist, and I'm not sure the establishment of Israel as a nation was a good idea, but the vicious hatred inculcated in young Palestinian boys who then dedicate their lives to murdering Jews is something no decent person can excuse.  Have the Jews mistreated the Palestinians?  I think so.  Does this justify terrorism against Israel?  Does mean Israel should be destroyed?  By that standard, most nations should be destroyed.

John Mundinger

Quote from: peter_speckhard on April 21, 2024, 03:30:29 PMAlso, most of the protests are not just anti-Israel, they are pro-Hamas, which is reprehensible in the extreme.

fact check???
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

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