Another One Says: Hold My Beer

Started by Steven W Bohler, July 17, 2023, 09:55:32 AM

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Steven W Bohler

Quote from: peterm on July 18, 2023, 01:00:10 PM
And how often is that done and the congregation or Pastor ignores the pronouncement of the President, or Bishop?  If the congregation or Pastor chooses to do so, and there are multiple examples on both sides of our fence, there is little a Bishop or President can actually do.

There is a difference between "can't" and "won't".  As Rev. Butler has indicated, in the LCMS a district president CAN take action (I too know of examples).  Sadly though, all too often, he won't.  I do not know how it works in the ELCA.  Maybe all your guys got was a fancy title, a purple shirt, and some bling but no actual power.  If so, then it is only one more reason for me to be glad that I am in the LCMS.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

#46
As I look at the Groen comments, my sense is that they fit within  ELCA theological parameters. There are a handful of biblical passages that use feminine examples to illustrate things about the One True God. E.g., Isaiah 66:10--13 uses feminine imagery for Jerusalem. The comparison is briefly applied to Yahweh in v. 13 to illustrate His compassion. Groen's comments go well beyond Isaiah's imagery but in the ELCA, that is likely acceptable.

"Make love" historically could mean "show affection," not necessarily "have intercourse," although the latter is almost universal now. More strange is the use of "promiscuous." The radical left in the ELCA would probably support this. Of course, anyone with a traditional strain would find it offensive and wrong.

If you're an ELCA bishop wanting reelection, why would you risk offending potential voters who favor this oddity? You would have to believe there is some advantage to chastening the the bad theology/rhetoric.

To put it differently, "Nice try, Groen.  But if you're trying to be truly radical, you've failed." Apart from a few likes and this thread, no one is moved.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: ThePaul711 on July 18, 2023, 11:00:44 PM
Interesting that a disgruntled pastor who left the SBC along with his congregation because it wasn't right-wing enough for him is writing about ELCA affairs.

Even more suprising is Dan Skogen didn't pick up on it first.
Actually that isn't interesting at all because it says nothing about content of said person highlighted. You may as well say it is interesting that criticism comes from critics. Why not address the substance?

David Garner

Most of the issue I take with stuff like this is not the content.  If you want to believe what you believe, I don't really care.

The issue is it's performative.  It's intended almost as empty rhetoric.  Remember during the George Floyd riots when Democrats wore Kente cloth and knelt?

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/13EA3/production/_112817518_gettykente976.png

It accomplished nothing.  It really took a lot of hubris, considering how many white politicians (and black politicians with no appreciation for the significance of the Kente cloth) were involved. "Cultural appropriation" apparently only matters depending on your politics.  But it wasn't intended to accomplish anything, and the appropriation was a sideshow anyway. They weren't appropriating culture.  They were simply doing political cosplay.  Call it cultural LARPing.

This is of a piece.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

John Mundinger

Quote from: peter_speckhard on July 17, 2023, 10:33:24 AMInstead, she continues to rise in the ranks through the ELCA. Four years ago, she was elected to the Discipline Committee of the Delaware-Maryland Synod, where she enjoys a close friendship with the Bishop.

Fwiw, the Discipline Committee is a prized position in the Montana Synod because the chances of it every meeting is very remote.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

ThePaul711

Quote from: peter_speckhard on July 19, 2023, 12:53:36 AM
Quote from: ThePaul711 on July 18, 2023, 11:00:44 PM
Interesting that a disgruntled pastor who left the SBC along with his congregation because it wasn't right-wing enough for him is writing about ELCA affairs.

Even more suprising is Dan Skogen didn't pick up on it first.
Actually that isn't interesting at all because it says nothing about content of said person highlighted. You may as well say it is interesting that criticism comes from critics. Why not address the substance?
Because your average ELCA pew-sitter doesn't think God is some pagan goddess who indulges your sexual desires.
Radical Lutheran (ELCA)

Attorney

Policy Wonk

Charles Austin

And your average ELCA pew-sitter doesn't think that some wacky ranting by a young pastor with no sense of propriety or the sensible use of words, whose over-heated imagination needs training is emblematic of the theology of the church body.
The average ELCA bishop has probably heard lots of complaints about young pastors whose fires were burning out of control.
The average ELCA congregation has probably dealt with more than one pastor whose feet tripped the light fantastic side of the street in goofball ways.
And we're still here; our doctrinal basis still solid and honorable. We are buffeted by many things, as is the entire world and we are trying to carry on as God calls us.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Matt Hummel

Your average ELCA pew sitter is also unawares of the fact that this or that pastor has been a sexual predator. But the Church does not make light of it or attempt to hide it. At least, not any more.

Let's stop pretending this is a minor sideshow. As one German theologian has put it "Christianity is not a philosophical speculation; it is not a construction of our mind. Christianity is not 'our' work; it is a Revelation; it is a message that has been consigned to us, and we have no right to reconstruct it as we like or choose."
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 20, 2023, 03:53:15 AM
...whose over-heated imagination needs training is emblematic of the theology of the church body...We are buffeted by many things, as is the entire world and we are trying to carry on as God calls us.

Quote from: Matt Hummel on July 20, 2023, 01:07:11 PM
Let's stop pretending this is a minor sideshow.

Indeed! Pastors Nadia Bolz Weber and Lura Groen, etc. And how about Bishop Leila Ortiz who supports polyamory?

https://www.leilamortiz.com/about-me

https://www.facebook.com/282016396263/posts/lutheran-love-elca-bishop-leila-ortiz-praises-polyamory/10157855459316264/?locale=zh_CN

Need training? Looks like these are the trainers!  :o
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

Fr.Hummel:
Your average ELCA pew sitter is also unawares of the fact that this or that pastor has been a sexual predator. But the Church does not make light of it or attempt to hide it. At least, not any more.

Me:
I guess we should thank you for the "at least, not anymore." Because making light of it and hiding it is exactly what your part of the church did in thousands of cases over decades of time.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

David Garner

Quote from: Matt Hummel on July 20, 2023, 01:07:11 PM
Your average ELCA pew sitter is also unawares of the fact that this or that pastor has been a sexual predator. But the Church does not make light of it or attempt to hide it. At least, not any more.

Let's stop pretending this is a minor sideshow. As one German theologian has put it "Christianity is not a philosophical speculation; it is not a construction of our mind. Christianity is not 'our' work; it is a Revelation; it is a message that has been consigned to us, and we have no right to reconstruct it as we like or choose."

My priest, who is a delightful man and also a very learned and wise priest, loves to say "Christianity is not an ideology. Ideology leads to the Bolsheviks."  Now, we're a church descendent of the Russian Church, so perhaps they are closer to his mind than others, but I think you can "insert bad people leaning on ideology here" and it still works.

Christianity is an encounter with God.  To the extent we can explain it, our explanations are feeble.  That is not to denigrate theology.  We do it and we do quite a lot of it.  It is to say theology disconnected from Him Who gives life and light is no more than another ideology.  Or as Father Paul also says, "it isn't enough to know ABOUT God, you must KNOW God."  Knowing that He exists, or even knowing a lot about Him, puts us no better than satan and his angels.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Jim Butler

Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on July 20, 2023, 01:32:18 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 20, 2023, 03:53:15 AM
...whose over-heated imagination needs training is emblematic of the theology of the church body...We are buffeted by many things, as is the entire world and we are trying to carry on as God calls us.

Quote from: Matt Hummel on July 20, 2023, 01:07:11 PM
Let's stop pretending this is a minor sideshow.

Indeed! Pastors Nadia Bolz Weber and Lura Groen, etc. And how about Bishop Leila Ortiz who supports polyamory?

https://www.leilamortiz.com/about-me

https://www.facebook.com/282016396263/posts/lutheran-love-elca-bishop-leila-ortiz-praises-polyamory/10157855459316264/?locale=zh_CN

Need training? Looks like these are the trainers!  :o

Oh Don, she's just a "wacky young pastor" whose "fires are burning out of control" as Mr. Austin would say. There is no reason to take her at all seriously.

Just because she's a bishop is no reason for anyone to be concerned. Just look at Bishop Megan who had embezzled from her (his, whatever) congregation and was clearly racist against Hispanics. They want to use a Sparkle Creed, say God is twerking in heaven with her big wide hips, and support polyamory--it's all cool with Mr. Austin. The ELCA's "doctrinal basis still solid and honorable."  They are all just "wacky young pastors."
"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

DCharlton

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 20, 2023, 02:11:39 PM
Fr.Hummel:
Your average ELCA pew sitter is also unawares of the fact that this or that pastor has been a sexual predator. But the Church does not make light of it or attempt to hide it. At least, not any more.

Me:
I guess we should thank you for the "at least, not anymore." Because making light of it and hiding it is exactly what your part of the church did in thousands of cases over decades of time.

Oh, Charles.  Let's not be blind to our own faults.  When I began seminary in 1988, the ELCA was reeling from the epidemic of sexual abuse.  This came about because there had been a tendency to make light of and hide abuse in the PCBs of the ELCA.  If I remember correctly, an inordinate amount of time was spent by bishops disciplining clergy.  Even with a policy of zero tolerance, there have been well publicized incidents of abuse in the last 30 years.  I know of at least one ELCA pastor who was jailed for abusing children.  There are certainly more.

Now I do commend the ELCA for the efforts it made to address the problem.  I know that boundaries training is mandatory for pastors in my former synod, and I assume, in all synods.  I also believe that one of the benefits of having female pastors is that they are less likely to overlook and excuse abuse.  Still, the ELCA and the NALC, of which I am now a part, have to remain vigilant. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 20, 2023, 02:11:39 PM
Fr.Hummel:
Your average ELCA pew sitter is also unawares of the fact that this or that pastor has been a sexual predator. But the Church does not make light of it or attempt to hide it. At least, not any more.

Me:
I guess we should thank you for the "at least, not anymore." Because making light of it and hiding it is exactly what your part of the church did in thousands of cases over decades of time.
Oooo Snap! Well that takes care of anything Fr. Hummel might say. Past RCC transgressions allows anything a Roman might say to be dismissed. The wisdom of the ELCA must not be questioned by people of that ilk,
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Matt Hummel

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 20, 2023, 02:11:39 PM
Fr.Hummel:
Your average ELCA pew sitter is also unawares of the fact that this or that pastor has been a sexual predator. But the Church does not make light of it or attempt to hide it. At least, not any more.

Me:
I guess we should thank you for the "at least, not anymore." Because making light of it and hiding it is exactly what your part of the church did in thousands of cases over decades of time.

Oh get over yourself. Whimsy!

Of course the ELCA is involved. I served on one of the taskforces to help draft synodical guidelines. But I also recall the unofficial position up until the 90s which was "Boys will be boys, just as long as boys aren't boys with other boys." So yeah, the RCC has to answer for homosexual rape of adolescent boys. What's your point?
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

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