"Anglican archbishop declares 'Our Father' to be 'problematic:'"

Started by Donald_Kirchner, July 07, 2023, 11:56:02 PM

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Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 09, 2023, 02:05:17 PM
Pastor Eckstein... we do not believe the Bible has the final word on [fill in the blank]...

And, there you have it. 🙄
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

RogerMartim

Pastor Eckstein, for a Gay person to marry a straight person, this is about the worst thing that one can do to the other. This isn't like a light switch that you can turn on and off. I have seen this so many times over the years and it is not pretty by any stretch of the imagination, especially when there are children involved. As a Gay man, I cannot even fathom being in an intimate relationship with the opposite sex. This isn't some kind of a pretend game. In a pastoral situation, were you to counsel someone entertaining a sham marriage, it would be your job to discourage as best as you can this kind of setup. If you are straight and the reverse were true, can you see yourself in this kind of a ménage à deux?

RogerMartim

I know that most of you think that I am engaging in hyperbole, but in today's political climate, there is a real fear in the LGBTQ community that there is a growing number of people who want to slap on a pink triangle on our sleeves. Can we in the LGBTQ community depend on you as Lutheran Christians to stand up for us rather than engaging in unhelpful rhetoric? Some of you like to say that you are just as sinful as any Gay person, but we don't hear that. We hear words like abnormality, deviation, and by some, Gay people are on the straight path to hell. We hear some of you as straight people say, even if unintentionally, "Thank God, thank God Almighty, I am not like any of 'those' people."

peter_speckhard

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 09, 2023, 03:00:35 PM
I know that most of you think that I am engaging in hyperbole, but in today's political climate, there is a real fear in the LGBTQ community that there is a growing number of people who want to slap on a pink triangle on our sleeves. Can we in the LGBTQ community depend on you as Lutheran Christians to stand up for us rather than engaging in unhelpful rhetoric? Some of you like to say that you are just as sinful as any Gay person, but we don't hear that. We hear words like abnormality, deviation, and by some, Gay people are on the straight path to hell. We hear some of you as straight people say, even if unintentionally, "Thank God, thank God Almighty, I am not like any of 'those' people."
I will always stand up for you as a child of God, always consider marriage a male/female design by definition, and always condemn homoerotic activity as sexual immorality. You might think those are mutually exclusive things, but they are not. 

John_Hannah

Quote from: John_Hannah on July 09, 2023, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on July 09, 2023, 08:30:42 AM
Quote from: RogerMartim on July 08, 2023, 08:06:05 PM
Your post is so offensive, Pastor Speckhard, I almost have no words to comment. So, I am akin to a one-eyed or three-eyed monster alongside with millions upon millions of others.
You really think blind or one-eyed people are monsters? It is an insult to be compared to them? Pointing out that not every system of the body functions as designed in every individual is simply obvious, and it applies also to our reproductive systems. Christian compassion goes out especially to such people struggling with such difficulties. That you are insulted demonstrates my point— you are not asking for inclusion or compassion, you are demanding a new anthropology altogether, one in which the abnormal (queer) is normal and by which our desires rather than God's designs define us.

I see a problem, as does Roger. Peter, the abnormalities you cite are are whole lot less common than is same sex attraction. Are you hoping that same sex attraction would be a lot less common, like 1 in 1,000,000?

Peace, JOHN

As I learned in Psychology 101. Compare same sex attraction to being left-handed (like my son) or having red hair or green eyes (like my wife had).

NON-MONSTER!

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

RF

Quote from: John_Hannah on July 09, 2023, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: John_Hannah on July 09, 2023, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on July 09, 2023, 08:30:42 AM
Quote from: RogerMartim on July 08, 2023, 08:06:05 PM
Your post is so offensive, Pastor Speckhard, I almost have no words to comment. So, I am akin to a one-eyed or three-eyed monster alongside with millions upon millions of others.
You really think blind or one-eyed people are monsters? It is an insult to be compared to them? Pointing out that not every system of the body functions as designed in every individual is simply obvious, and it applies also to our reproductive systems. Christian compassion goes out especially to such people struggling with such difficulties. That you are insulted demonstrates my point— you are not asking for inclusion or compassion, you are demanding a new anthropology altogether, one in which the abnormal (queer) is normal and by which our desires rather than God's designs define us.

I see a problem, as does Roger. Peter, the abnormalities you cite are are whole lot less common than is same sex attraction. Are you hoping that same sex attraction would be a lot less common, like 1 in 1,000,000?

Peace, JOHN

As I learned in Psychology 101. Compare same sex attraction to being left-handed (like my son) or having red hair or green eyes (like my wife had).

NON-MONSTER!

Peace, JOHN

What did you learn in Christian Theology 101?


J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: David Garner on July 09, 2023, 07:09:03 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2023, 02:09:48 AM
Quote from: David Garner on July 08, 2023, 12:12:23 PM
So you are suggesting that the "Our Father" is simply an English translation error?


I never said it was an error. Jesus did not say the English word, "Father." Most likely he used the Aramaic, "Abba," which is used in some other NT texts - and not translated. Some experimental versions of the Lord's Prayer used, "Abba."

Right. So why do the Greeks translate it "Father?"

Quote
QuoteWhy does the Greek Church disagree with you on that point?  Do the Greeks not understand Greek as well as you do?

https://www.goarch.org/-/lords-prayer

The site offers the Lord's prayer in English, Greek, and Spanish. The word "Father" only occurs in the English version. Why do you think that is?

Because the Greeks know what it meant in the original.

Exactly.

What does Pater imon mean other than "Our Father?"
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Charles Austin

One of the best church journalists I have ever known (not a Lutheran) was in a "marriage" to a woman for 20+ years. It was a personal disaster for both. After divorce she remarried. He is now 80+ and faces Parkinson's disease alone.
   Meanwhile, one of the best pastors I have ever known has had a "roommate" for 40+ years. Early on very few knew they were a gay couple.
   Later more did, but no one cared. Now in retirement, they have support and love from church, friends, family, and each other.
   Tell me - apart from a single, narrow, oft-contested interpretation of one or two Bible verses - what is wrong with this. Tell me where the Bible is a textbook on biology, psychology, paleontology or all the complications of sexuality. Tell me where is is totally clear that reproductive sexuality is the one, only form of Christian family life.
   Peter's view hurts church, fellow Christians, those who may want to be Christian and millions of others.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

RogerMartim

Pastor Speckhard, you consider me a child of God, but you always add a caveat. Adolf Hitler was a child of God. So, your words ring hallow. You don't know the least thing about me, but you seem to be pretty certain that I am intrinsically disordered, but I know that I am not. Back to Square One.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: David Garner on July 09, 2023, 07:09:03 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2023, 02:09:48 AM
Quote from: David Garner on July 08, 2023, 12:12:23 PM
So you are suggesting that the "Our Father" is simply an English translation error?

I never said it was an error. Jesus did not say the English word, "Father." Most likely he used the Aramaic, "Abba," which is used in some other NT texts - and not translated. Some experimental versions of the Lord's Prayer used, "Abba."

Right. So why do the Greeks translate it "Father?"

It's a way pater can be translated. Like in English, the word "Father" has different meanings. My sons call me "father." A classmate of one of our sons is known as "Father Bill." He's a Roman Catholic priest. "Father" has a different meaning there. George Washington is called, "Father of our country." Still a different definition of "father." Paul writes to the Corinthians: "I became your father through the gospel" (1 Cor 4:15). That's still an additional meaning.

BDAG - gives the following definitions and glosses for the Greek word pater.

1. the immediate biological ancestor, parent
   a. male, father
   b. male and female together as parents
2. one from whom one is descended and generally at least several generations removed, forefather, ancestor, progenitor, forebear: of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob
3. one who provides moral and intellectual upbringing, father
     a. in a positive sense
     b. in a neg. sense of the devil
          1) as father of a group of Judeans (J 8:44ab) as verdict on the sin of the opposition to God's purpose
              in Jesus, not on the person
          2) as father of lies
4. a title of respectful address, father
     a. as an honorary title
     b. as a designation of the older male members of a church
5. revered deceased persons with whom one shares beliefs or traditions, fathers, ancestors
     a. generation(s) of deceased Christians
     b. the illustrious religious heroes of the OT, who are "ancestors" even to gentile Christians,
         who are validated as Israelites
     c. the "fatherhood" can also consist in the fact that the one who is called "father" is the prototype of a group
        or the founder of a class of persons
6. the supreme deity, who is responsible for the origin and care of all that exists, Father, Parent
     a. as the originator and ruler
     b. as "the father of the spirits"
     c. as father of humankind
          1) as a saying of Jesus "my Father"
          2) as said by Christians
          3) as said by Judeans
     d. as Father of Jesus Christ
          1) in Jesus' witness concerning himself
          2) in the confession of the Christians
     e. oft. God is simply called (the) Father

In classical Greek literature, pater, was used for Zeus.

QuoteBecause the Greeks know what it meant in the original.

pater, as noted above, has many definitions. Some of those indicate a male person. Some of those do not.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

David Garner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2023, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: David Garner on July 09, 2023, 07:09:03 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2023, 02:09:48 AM
Quote from: David Garner on July 08, 2023, 12:12:23 PM
So you are suggesting that the "Our Father" is simply an English translation error?

I never said it was an error. Jesus did not say the English word, "Father." Most likely he used the Aramaic, "Abba," which is used in some other NT texts - and not translated. Some experimental versions of the Lord's Prayer used, "Abba."

Right. So why do the Greeks translate it "Father?"

It's a way pater can be translated. Like in English, the word "Father" has different meanings. My sons call me "father." A classmate of one of our sons is known as "Father Bill." He's a Roman Catholic priest. "Father" has a different meaning there. George Washington is called, "Father of our country." Still a different definition of "father." Paul writes to the Corinthians: "I became your father through the gospel" (1 Cor 4:15). That's still an additional meaning.

BDAG - gives the following definitions and glosses for the Greek word pater.

1. the immediate biological ancestor, parent
   a. male, father
   b. male and female together as parents
2. one from whom one is descended and generally at least several generations removed, forefather, ancestor, progenitor, forebear: of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob
3. one who provides moral and intellectual upbringing, father
     a. in a positive sense
     b. in a neg. sense of the devil
          1) as father of a group of Judeans (J 8:44ab) as verdict on the sin of the opposition to God's purpose
              in Jesus, not on the person
          2) as father of lies
4. a title of respectful address, father
     a. as an honorary title
     b. as a designation of the older male members of a church
5. revered deceased persons with whom one shares beliefs or traditions, fathers, ancestors
     a. generation(s) of deceased Christians
     b. the illustrious religious heroes of the OT, who are "ancestors" even to gentile Christians,
         who are validated as Israelites
     c. the "fatherhood" can also consist in the fact that the one who is called "father" is the prototype of a group
        or the founder of a class of persons
6. the supreme deity, who is responsible for the origin and care of all that exists, Father, Parent
     a. as the originator and ruler
     b. as "the father of the spirits"
     c. as father of humankind
          1) as a saying of Jesus "my Father"
          2) as said by Christians
          3) as said by Judeans
     d. as Father of Jesus Christ
          1) in Jesus' witness concerning himself
          2) in the confession of the Christians
     e. oft. God is simply called (the) Father

In classical Greek literature, pater, was used for Zeus.

QuoteBecause the Greeks know what it meant in the original.

pater, as noted above, has many definitions. Some of those indicate a male person. Some of those do not.

You write a ton of words to obscure the obvious.

But then, that's obvious too. And I'd wager every person here sees it.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

So the choices here are between:

1. Heterosexuality as God's created order.

2. Both heterosexuality and homosexuality as God's created order.

Are those the arguments?

RDPreus

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 09, 2023, 03:00:35 PM
I know that most of you think that I am engaging in hyperbole, but in today's political climate, there is a real fear in the LGBTQ community that there is a growing number of people who want to slap on a pink triangle on our sleeves. Can we in the LGBTQ community depend on you as Lutheran Christians to stand up for us rather than engaging in unhelpful rhetoric? Some of you like to say that you are just as sinful as any Gay person, but we don't hear that. We hear words like abnormality, deviation, and by some, Gay people are on the straight path to hell. We hear some of you as straight people say, even if unintentionally, "Thank God, thank God Almighty, I am not like any of 'those' people."

You're seventy-five years old.  That's old enough to know that once upon a time in America most homosexuals remained closeted and hid it from others.  If nobody knew you were a homosexual, you would not be treated differently from those who are not homosexuals.  Even if people suspected it, if you didn't give voice to it, they would not know for sure.  If a homosexual wants to tell the world that he is a homosexual, he has nothing to complain about if people who view homosexuality as a sin speak their minds on the matter.  We all have secret sins known only to God.  We confess them to God.  We don't advertise them to the world.    To have a desire that cannot be fulfilled without sin is a terrible cross.  We bear that cross in silence, unless to confide in a close friend or our pastor.  What I object to is the insistence that we who know and believe what God's word says about homosexuality should be judged as haters for standing on God's word.  But then, I guess that's also a cross we must bear.

Terry W Culler

Homosexuality isn't the issue, it is the result of the issue--is the Bible truly the Word of God?  If it is, then certain things are out of bounds.  If it is subject to the opinions of those who believe some of it is the Word of God and some of it is not--well then it's anything goes. 
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

Tom Eckstein

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 09, 2023, 02:32:23 PM
Pastor Eckstein, for a Gay person to marry a straight person, this is about the worst thing that one can do to the other. This isn't like a light switch that you can turn on and off. I have seen this so many times over the years and it is not pretty by any stretch of the imagination, especially when there are children involved. As a Gay man, I cannot even fathom being in an intimate relationship with the opposite sex. This isn't some kind of a pretend game. In a pastoral situation, were you to counsel someone entertaining a sham marriage, it would be your job to discourage as best as you can this kind of setup. If you are straight and the reverse were true, can you see yourself in this kind of a ménage à deux?

Roger, I never said your only option was to marry a person of the opposite sex.  Your other option, if you follow Christ, is to remain single and celibate.  What is NOT an option is for you to stop resisting temptaiton and engage in same-sex behavior.  That is a sin that God condemns along with heterosexual fornication and adultery and viewing porn and incest and bestiality - that is, these are ALL the same sin and equally an abomination before God.

As for your insistenace that a person who has same-sex attraction can't marry a person of the opposite sex - that may be the case for some, but certainly not for all.  I have friends who have same-sex attraction who agree with God's Word that same-sex lust and behavior is wrong and so some of them remain single and celibate but others have entered into marriage with a person of the opposite sex and their spouses new they had same-sex desires.  But they have made their marriages work, they have had children, and they are happy.  Do they still have same-sex desires?  Yes.  But they resist the temptation to act on those desires and they remain faithful to their spouses.  It's really no different than many heterosexual men who have sexual desires for women other than their wives but they resist those desires and, by God's grace, refuse to act on them.  What they DON'T do is say:  "I have sexual desires for women other than my wife.  So, God must have made me this way and so you need to affirm my sexual behavior with other women outside of my marriage - and if you don't do that, then you're a hater and a bigot!"

Roger, Scripture is clear that same-sex behavior is sinful and is not made into something "good" simply because two men or two women pretend to be "married."  Jesus clearly teaches that marriage is for ONE man and ONE woman - and the only other option for our sexuality outside of biblical marriage is CELIBACY.

So, Roger, if it is truly impossible for you to imagine having sex with a woman, I understand that.  But then God's will for you is to remain single and celibate and to "bear that cross" along with the rest of us who face multiple temptations that we didn't choose to have in our lives.  But just because we face various temptations doesn't mean we get to affirmt those temptations much less act on them.  Instead, we are called to crucify to the desires of our sinful nature.

Those who have lied to you that Scripture affirms same-sex behavior between to two adults who consent to it and are committed to each other will have to answer to God for their false teaching and leading others into sin.  But you also need to take responsibility for the fact that God has used faithful Christians to speak His truth to you about the issue of same-sex behavior.  God is calling you to repent of any same-sex lust or behavior in your life, receive forgiveness in Christ, and then strive to live according to God's will for your sexuality - which is  1) having sex with a woman within marriage  OR  2) remaining single and celibate.

Based on what you have said, your option will be to remain single and celibate - and this can be a wonderful vocation and a beautiful way to serve God and others.  You can find a loving family within the body of Christ who are fellow sinners who need Jesus as much as you do and who would walk beside you and support you as you strive to be faithful to Christ.

Roger, one last thing.  I agree with you that our culture and the church has been guilty of "winking at" or even affirming heterosexual sin while demeaning and mocking those who have same-sex desires.  The church needs to repent of treating people with same-sex attraction as those they are much worse sinners than those of us who are guilty of various heteroexual sins.  But the Church does not correct their past bad behavior in this area by falling into the other ditch and affirming same-sex behavior when God's Word clearly condemns it.  This is just as evil!

In addition to the booklet I wrote on this issue which I linked for you above, you may wish to check out my book "Bearing Their Burden" which treats this issue much more thoroughly:

https://www.amazon.com/Bearing-Their-Burden-Tom-Eckstein/dp/055779319X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2E1J7ASK0TWVC&keywords=Bearing+Their+Burden+Eckstein&qid=1688950970&sprefix=bearing+their+burden+eckstei%2Caps%2C636&sr=8-1

Roger, also check out this book written by a friend of mine who has same-sex attraction and lives a single and celiate life in faithfulness to God's Word.  He used to egage in same-sex behavior, but the Lord brought Him to repentance and back to Christ.  You can find his book here:

https://www.amazon.com/Forgive-Us-Our-Sins-Homosexuality/dp/0810025957/ref=sr_1_1?crid=20K7VMJ4Y3DGJ&keywords=Forgive+us+our+sins+barefoot&qid=1688951089&sprefix=forgive+us+our+sins+barefoot%2Caps%2C114&sr=8-1
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

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