"Anglican archbishop declares 'Our Father' to be 'problematic:'"

Started by Donald_Kirchner, July 07, 2023, 11:56:02 PM

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RDPreus

A man with only one eye is not a monster.  It is offensive to suggest that he is.

Brian Stoffregen

#31
Quote from: David Garner on July 08, 2023, 12:12:23 PM
So you are suggesting that the "Our Father" is simply an English translation error?


I never said it was an error. Jesus did not say the English word, "Father." Most likely he used the Aramaic, "Abba," which is used in some other NT texts - and not translated. Some experimental versions of the Lord's Prayer used, "Abba."

QuoteWhy does the Greek Church disagree with you on that point?  Do the Greeks not understand Greek as well as you do?

https://www.goarch.org/-/lords-prayer

The site offers the Lord's prayer in English, Greek, and Spanish. The word "Father" only occurs in the English version. Why do you think that is?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

David Garner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 09, 2023, 02:09:48 AM
Quote from: David Garner on July 08, 2023, 12:12:23 PM
So you are suggesting that the "Our Father" is simply an English translation error?


I never said it was an error. Jesus did not say the English word, "Father." Most likely he used the Aramaic, "Abba," which is used in some other NT texts - and not translated. Some experimental versions of the Lord's Prayer used, "Abba."

Right. So why do the Greeks translate it "Father?"

Quote
QuoteWhy does the Greek Church disagree with you on that point?  Do the Greeks not understand Greek as well as you do?

https://www.goarch.org/-/lords-prayer

The site offers the Lord's prayer in English, Greek, and Spanish. The word "Father" only occurs in the English version. Why do you think that is?

Because the Greeks know what it meant in the original.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

David Garner

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 08, 2023, 08:06:05 PM
Your post is so offensive, Pastor Speckhard, I almost have no words to comment. So, I am akin to a one-eyed or three-eyed monster alongside with millions upon millions of others.

Why do you consider people with eye deformities "monsters?"
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 08, 2023, 08:06:05 PM
Your post is so offensive, Pastor Speckhard, I almost have no words to comment. So, I am akin to a one-eyed or three-eyed monster alongside with millions upon millions of others.

Roger, I have a family member born with 11 birth defects due to a genetic syndrome. He's fully human but has unusual features that affect sight, hearing, etc.  He's not at all a monster. Recognizing that he is different is not mean. In fact it's been essential to his care.

Charles Austin

Are folks here so easily distracted? Or are you consciously ignoring the cry of pain by RogerMartim?
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

David Garner

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 09, 2023, 07:23:18 AM
Are folks here so easily distracted? Or are you consciously ignoring the cry of pain by RogerMartim?

Do you really think people here are this stupid?
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 08, 2023, 08:06:05 PM
Your post is so offensive, Pastor Speckhard, I almost have no words to comment. So, I am akin to a one-eyed or three-eyed monster alongside with millions upon millions of others.
You really think blind or one-eyed people are monsters? It is an insult to be compared to them? Pointing out that not every system of the body functions as designed in every individual is simply obvious, and it applies also to our reproductive systems. Christian compassion goes out especially to such people struggling with such difficulties. That you are insulted demonstrates my point— you are not asking for inclusion or compassion, you are demanding a new anthropology altogether, one in which the abnormal (queer) is normal and by which our desires rather than God's designs define us.

RogerMartim

Perhaps my use of the word "monster" was intemperate. I was thinking more of the one-eye as a cyclopean kind rather than a physical anamoly. Still Pastor Speckhard, you do not get off the hook for your most offensive post. You yourself said that you have two eyes and that you are simply normal. If the person has one eye, then he or she is abnormal, and to me that isn't a whole lot different than my use of the word monster. My homosexuality is to be compared to constipation? Something amiss? Malfunction? Malady? I am fearfully and wonderfully made but according to you, Pastor Speckhard, and many others here, I am a sad deviation from the design of humanity. For the record, I am not struggling with "such difficulties." It isn't my desire to supersede God's design for me. I am exactly who God wanted me to be. You, Pastor Speckhard would be laughed right out of the room by the American Psychological Association of which authority on homosexuality is 100-fold to yours.
The sad thing about all this is that you, Pastor Speckhard and your ilk are driving people out of the church in droves, especially among Gay folks. You go into any Gay forum akin to ALPB, and it is almost like if one is in an atheist forum. The bitterness is palpable.
I will be 75 in a few days' time and my mother who is as doctrinaire as any LCMS cleric or laic here will be 100 next month. She doesn't sit and stew about this icky homosexual stuff. She simply accepts me as a child of God and she of all people knows that I am not a sad deviant. My mother no longer goes to church given her age, but a couple of Sundays ago on June 25, she celebrated the anniversary of the Confessio Augustana by getting out her copy and reading it from beginning to end. I am pretty sure she didn't read anything about God shutting out a whole class of people who are not straight.

John_Hannah

Quote from: peter_speckhard on July 09, 2023, 08:30:42 AM
Quote from: RogerMartim on July 08, 2023, 08:06:05 PM
Your post is so offensive, Pastor Speckhard, I almost have no words to comment. So, I am akin to a one-eyed or three-eyed monster alongside with millions upon millions of others.
You really think blind or one-eyed people are monsters? It is an insult to be compared to them? Pointing out that not every system of the body functions as designed in every individual is simply obvious, and it applies also to our reproductive systems. Christian compassion goes out especially to such people struggling with such difficulties. That you are insulted demonstrates my point— you are not asking for inclusion or compassion, you are demanding a new anthropology altogether, one in which the abnormal (queer) is normal and by which our desires rather than God's designs define us.

I see a problem, as does Roger. Peter, the abnormalities you cite are are whole lot less common than is same sex attraction. Are you hoping that same sex attraction would be a lot less common, like 1 in 1,000,000?

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

RF

"A theologian of the cross calls the thing what it actually is" by Martin Luther

"A theologian of glory calls evil good and good evil. A theologian of the cross calls the thing what it actually is. This is clear: He who does not know Christ does not know God hidden in suffering. Therefore he prefers works to suffering, glow to the cross, strength to weakness, wisdom to folly, and, in general, good to evil. These are the people whom the apostle calls 'enemies of the cross of Christ' [Phil. 3:18], for they hate the cross and suffering and love works and the glory of works.

Thus they call the good of the cross evil and the evil of a deed good. God can be found only in suffering and the cross, as has already been said. Therefore the friends of the cross say that the cross is good and works are evil, for through the cross works are destroyed and the old Adam, who is especially edified by works, is crucified. It is impossible for a person not to be puffed up by his good works unless he has first been deflated and destroyed by suffering and evil until he knows that he is worthless and that his works are not his but God's."

–Martin Luther, Luther's Works, Vol. 31 : Career of the Reformer I. (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999), 53.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 09, 2023, 10:42:11 AM
Perhaps my use of the word "monster" was intemperate. I was thinking more of the one-eye as a cyclopean kind rather than a physical anamoly. Still Pastor Speckhard, you do not get off the hook for your most offensive post. You yourself said that you have two eyes and that you are simply normal. If the person has one eye, then he or she is abnormal, and to me that isn't a whole lot different than my use of the word monster. My homosexuality is to be compared to constipation? Something amiss? Malfunction? Malady? I am fearfully and wonderfully made but according to you, Pastor Speckhard, and many others here, I am a sad deviation from the design of humanity. For the record, I am not struggling with "such difficulties." It isn't my desire to supersede God's design for me. I am exactly who God wanted me to be. You, Pastor Speckhard would be laughed right out of the room by the American Psychological Association of which authority on homosexuality is 100-fold to yours.
The sad thing about all this is that you, Pastor Speckhard and your ilk are driving people out of the church in droves, especially among Gay folks. You go into any Gay forum akin to ALPB, and it is almost like if one is in an atheist forum. The bitterness is palpable.
I will be 75 in a few days' time and my mother who is as doctrinaire as any LCMS cleric or laic here will be 100 next month. She doesn't sit and stew about this icky homosexual stuff. She simply accepts me as a child of God and she of all people knows that I am not a sad deviant. My mother no longer goes to church given her age, but a couple of Sundays ago on June 25, she celebrated the anniversary of the Confessio Augustana by getting out her copy and reading it from beginning to end. I am pretty sure she didn't read anything about God shutting out a whole class of people who are not straight.
Of course you are fearfully and wonderfully made. As am I, as are people with all kinds of maladies, be they physical deformities, mental or psychological disorders, hormone imbalances, or whatever. Nobody can say, "I am without malady of any kind. I am a model of perfect humanity, flawless in every way." It is absurd to be insulted at the idea that you have a malady.

You are a child of God and are fearfully and wonderfully made, and not one ounce of you was made to unite with another man and become one flesh with him. The reproductive system (I prefer procreative system) of a human being involves physical body parts, hormones, emotions, and coordination with other systems like the circulatory and nervous systems. It has an intricate design that requires all these things to develop according to a pattern and work together, and it can go wrong in many ways. But it is still a reproductive system, and the primary way to tell whether it is going right or going wrong is by whether or not what it does can fulfill that function.

I would be laughed out of many rooms filled with many kinds of people for believing what I believe. As would you. The American Psychological Association is not an authority on God's designs, declarations, or moral laws, so I'm not sure what grounds they would have to laugh me out of the room for thinking what I think about those things or believing that the physical union of two males does not fulfill the purpose of the procreative system of the human body. But if they would, so be it. 

You are reading a lot into my posts that isn't there. I never said you weren't fearfully and wonderfully made, that you couldn't be a child of God, or that a whole class of people is shut out. I reject the system of classification you use in favor of the one God uses. You and I are not homosexual or heterosexual. We are both male. We are defined by the bodies God gave us, not our fallen erotic attractions. Our society's insistence on introducing other classifications into the discussion and then treating those man-made classifications with the same authority as the divinely revealed classification of male/female is what is causing a lot of confusion. 

Tom Eckstein

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 09, 2023, 10:42:11 AM
Perhaps my use of the word "monster" was intemperate. I was thinking more of the one-eye as a cyclopean kind rather than a physical anamoly. Still Pastor Speckhard, you do not get off the hook for your most offensive post. You yourself said that you have two eyes and that you are simply normal. If the person has one eye, then he or she is abnormal, and to me that isn't a whole lot different than my use of the word monster. My homosexuality is to be compared to constipation? Something amiss? Malfunction? Malady? I am fearfully and wonderfully made but according to you, Pastor Speckhard, and many others here, I am a sad deviation from the design of humanity. For the record, I am not struggling with "such difficulties." It isn't my desire to supersede God's design for me. I am exactly who God wanted me to be. You, Pastor Speckhard would be laughed right out of the room by the American Psychological Association of which authority on homosexuality is 100-fold to yours.
The sad thing about all this is that you, Pastor Speckhard and your ilk are driving people out of the church in droves, especially among Gay folks. You go into any Gay forum akin to ALPB, and it is almost like if one is in an atheist forum. The bitterness is palpable.
I will be 75 in a few days' time and my mother who is as doctrinaire as any LCMS cleric or laic here will be 100 next month. She doesn't sit and stew about this icky homosexual stuff. She simply accepts me as a child of God and she of all people knows that I am not a sad deviant. My mother no longer goes to church given her age, but a couple of Sundays ago on June 25, she celebrated the anniversary of the Confessio Augustana by getting out her copy and reading it from beginning to end. I am pretty sure she didn't read anything about God shutting out a whole class of people who are not straight.

Roger, I have not read this entire thread so I may be missing some of the details of the conversation.   But I see you think that Peter is being offensive by saying that homosexuality is "abnormal."  Allow me to add to this.

Simply put, I do believe same-sex attraction is abnormal and a result of the Fall just as all HETEROsexual attraction for a person who is not your husband/wife is abnormal and a result of the FALL.  Simply put, we're ALL broken sexually and we ALL have abnormal sexual desires.   But God calls us to repent of lustful desires or behaviors, receive forgiveness in Christ, and then strive to live according to His will for our sexuality, which is:  1) Being single and CELIBATE  or  2) Engaging in sex in marriage between ONE man and ONE woman.   

So, those who have same-sex attraction and want to follow Christ will choose either 1) to be single and celibate  or  2) marry a person of the OPPOSTIE sex.  Yes, I have gay friends who have married people of the OPPOSITE sex and have had children with them.  It can be done!

As for welcoming "gay people" into the Church, that depends what you mean by "gay people." 

Do you mean Christians who have same-sex attraction but agree with God that same-sex lust and behavior is sinful and so they choose either to be single/celibate or to marry a person of the opposite sex?  If so, then such people should be lovingly embraced by other Christians who are also broken sinners who need Jesus as much as they do.   

Or by "gay Christian" do you mean a person who ignores Scripture and affirms same-sex lust and behavior even though God condemns it?  In this case, such people are not repentant and do not take God's Word seriously and they should be called to repentance and faith in Jesus.  The same should be done for any person who claims to be Christian and yet affirms their sexual sin - whether that be heterosexual fornication, viewing porn, adultery, etc.

Here is a link to a booklet I wrote about Scripture's teaching on homosexuality and how to speak the Truth in love on this issue:

https://www.cph.org/a-biblical-response-to-homosexuality-pack-of-20
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 09, 2023, 10:42:11 AM
You go into any Gay forum akin to ALPB, and it is almost like if one is in an atheist forum. The bitterness is palpable.

Well, yeah! What would you expect?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

Pastor Eckstein, many of us belong to a segment of the one holy Catholic and apostolic church that does not agree with you on this point. As we do not agree with you on matters of creation as told in Genesis or the historical accuracy of Noah or Jonah, we do not believe the Bible has the final word on all permutations of human sexuality.
Yes, we are created to reproduce in a certain way. But not every human being needs to do that.
Some are created for and called to a different kind of life.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

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