News:


Main Menu

LGBTQ and Eschatology

Started by passerby, June 11, 2023, 05:56:02 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

RF

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.

What a perverted reply. Sad. Do you have a clue as to how you are perceived by faithful orthodox Christians? 

Dan Fienen

#31
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.
Analogies illustrate arguments, they do not prove positions. I do not find your analogies persuasive.


There are also aspects of creation do not have in-between states. Quantum states for example. Creation seems to have a definite graininess in its fine structure. There is a transition between light and dark, dark and light in dawn and dusk, but sunrise and sunset are a discreet points in time when the sun first peeks over the horizon or finally slips below. The sun is either visible or not. The moment can even be marked by a green flash. (So I've read, never seen it myself.)
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Fletch1 on June 17, 2023, 04:52:31 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.

What a perverted reply. Sad. Do you have a clue as to how you are perceived by faithful orthodox Christians?


Yup. More than once I've been called a heretic. However, do you disagree with what I've said about the in betweenness that exists in creation? Are there times between light and dark? Are there places between land and sea?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

George Rahn

#33
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 07:56:00 PM
Quote from: Fletch1 on June 17, 2023, 04:52:31 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.

What a perverted reply. Sad. Do you have a clue as to how you are perceived by faithful orthodox Christians?


Yup. More than once I've been called a heretic. However, do you disagree with what I've said about the in betweenness that exists in creation? Are there times between light and dark? Are there places between land and sea?

Sure.  After the Fall and Exile from the Garden of Eden there are all sorts of creations.  Doesn't mean that God intended them to be that way prior to the Fall.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Rahn on June 17, 2023, 09:19:22 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 07:56:00 PM
Quote from: Fletch1 on June 17, 2023, 04:52:31 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.

What a perverted reply. Sad. Do you have a clue as to how you are perceived by faithful orthodox Christians?


Yup. More than once I've been called a heretic. However, do you disagree with what I've said about the in betweenness that exists in creation? Are there times between light and dark? Are there places between land and sea?

Sure.  After the Fall and Exile from the Garden of Eden there are all sorts of creations.  Doesn't mean that God intended them to be that way prior to the Fall.


Neither does it mean that God did not intend them to be the way they are: beautiful sunrises and sunsets between the light and dark.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

ThePaul711

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 10:03:20 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on June 17, 2023, 09:19:22 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 07:56:00 PM
Quote from: Fletch1 on June 17, 2023, 04:52:31 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.

What a perverted reply. Sad. Do you have a clue as to how you are perceived by faithful orthodox Christians?


Yup. More than once I've been called a heretic. However, do you disagree with what I've said about the in betweenness that exists in creation? Are there times between light and dark? Are there places between land and sea?

Sure.  After the Fall and Exile from the Garden of Eden there are all sorts of creations.  Doesn't mean that God intended them to be that way prior to the Fall.


Neither does it mean that God did not intend them to be the way they are: beautiful sunrises and sunsets between the light and dark.
Various gender expressions don't negate that humans are a sexually dimorphic species.

As Twitter influencer Billboard Chris loves to say, "There are two sexes, zero genders, and endless personalities."
Radical Lutheran (ELCA)

Attorney

Policy Wonk

John Mundinger

Quote from: passerby on June 11, 2023, 05:56:02 PM
WHEREAS, in so far as queerness reflects the abundance of God's creation, the wideness of God's mercy, and the depth of God's love, it is divine;


We maintain that queerness realizes an eschatological break with the old creation,  embodies the transformative inbreaking of new creation, and thereby offers a form or parable of the transfiguration witnessed by scripture;

We affirm that queer communities embody new depths of humanity, which fulfill dreams and visions of the unpredictable creativity of God and the infinite diversity of God's creation;

I agree with everything in this resolution except for the portions that I quoted.

It is my opinion that American Lutheranism, in all of its flavors, functions as though AC II is not part of our confession.  And, if we ignore AC II, AC IV is a hollow promise.

Original sin is the desire to be like God, the desire to be God.  Original sin is selfishness - selfishness that manifests as the recreation of the divine in our own image.  Nowhere is this more evident than in our inability to constructively engage the conversation about human sexuality.  We assume that God is gendered.  Those who have difficult embracing the humanity of LGBTQ+ folks envision the image of a masculine divine who created a cis-gendered, heterosexual humanity, no exceptions.  Those in the LGBTQ+ envision a divine who created them as they are - the sentiment expressed in the resolution. 

I do not claim to know the image of God, except that God is love.  But, I believe that both of these visions are wrong.  Each of us is created in the image of the divine.  Each of us is born the way we are with a corrupted version of that image.  God did not create queer people queer anymore than God created me as a cis-gendered, heterosexual male who is incapable of loving my wife as Christ first loved the church.

I believe in the wideness of God's mercy and the depth of God's love and for each person, just as they are.  I do not believe that queerness reflects anything like a new creation.  We are sinful humans, incapable of envisioning creation as it existed before humanity's collective sin corrupted God's good creation.  We are sinful humans, incapable of comprehending the breadth of divine wisdom.

At the same time, I believe that Christians have a duty to advocate for the rights of the LGBTQ+ people.  I do not believe that, in the eyes of God, they are any different from myself.  Moreover, I am called to be like Jesus to everyone I meet and I am called to see the face of Jesus in everyone I meet.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 10:03:20 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on June 17, 2023, 09:19:22 PM

Sure.  After the Fall and Exile from the Garden of Eden there are all sorts of creations.  Doesn't mean that God intended them to be that way prior to the Fall.

Neither does it mean that God did not intend them to be the way they are: beautiful sunrises and sunsets between the light and dark.

<sigh>  Brian's wacky senselessness never ends. 😒
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Matt Hummel

Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on July 08, 2023, 10:19:09 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 10:03:20 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on June 17, 2023, 09:19:22 PM

Sure.  After the Fall and Exile from the Garden of Eden there are all sorts of creations.  Doesn't mean that God intended them to be that way prior to the Fall.

Neither does it mean that God did not intend them to be the way they are: beautiful sunrises and sunsets between the light and dark.

<sigh>  Brian's wacky senselessness never ends. 😒

R: His steadfast nonsense endureth forever.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Charles Austin

And what is to be gained, in dialogue, in fellowship, or in anything by continually pointing that out. Just ignore what you don't like.
There are times here when I might be inclined to say: "another example if Pastor Goofy's nutty conservatism."
I don't do that.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

Donald_Kirchner

#40
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 08, 2023, 11:01:11 AM
And what is to be gained, in dialogue, in fellowship, or in anything by continually pointing that out. Just ignore what you don't like.
There are times here when I might be inclined to say: "another example if Pastor Goofy's nutty conservatism."
I don't do that.

No, you simply call it stupid. 🙄  E.g.:

To Pastor Butler: "Try not to be intentionally stupid." 

To Pastor Fienen: "I already support hunting, target ranges and guns for 'protection.' I think it stupid, but..."
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 10:03:20 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on June 17, 2023, 09:19:22 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 07:56:00 PM
Quote from: Fletch1 on June 17, 2023, 04:52:31 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.

What a perverted reply. Sad. Do you have a clue as to how you are perceived by faithful orthodox Christians?


Yup. More than once I've been called a heretic. However, do you disagree with what I've said about the in betweenness that exists in creation? Are there times between light and dark? Are there places between land and sea?

Sure.  After the Fall and Exile from the Garden of Eden there are all sorts of creations.  Doesn't mean that God intended them to be that way prior to the Fall.


Neither does it mean that God did not intend them to be the way they are: beautiful sunrises and sunsets between the light and dark.
Let's unpack this a bit.


Brian, I'm trying to decipher your last proposition. Are you actually arguing that because we cannot prove you wrong, that we cannot prove that God did not intend them to be the way they are, we should then assume that God did intend them that way? That makes little sense. At best, your assertion is unproven. Perhaps I cannot prima facia prove you wrong, but yours still remains an unsupported assertion.


People are not twilight. Argument by analogy works best, if it works at all, when the analogy compares similar things. You want to argue from the day/night cycle and shoreline wetlands to gender and sexuality in humans. Those things that you compare have no commonality to drive the analogy. The comparison is purely arbitrary. You are assuming the result that you want and then arbitrarily assigning an analogy that sort of, kind of seems somewhat similar to prove your assertion. As a touchdown celebration among those who already believe what you're peddling, it kind of works. As a convincing argument, no.


The analogy of mosquitoes, penguins, and platypuses is bit more cogent, they are at least alive. Still, mosquitoes and penguins are adapted to their geographic and ecological niches which dictate their characteristics. They are not, as you suggest, in between organisms but adapted organisms. The platypus is not, as again as you suggest, a cross between a duck and a beaver. It is not closely related to either. That it looks like it could be says nothing about its nature. And it is the nature, not primarily the appearance of the many human genders that you are arguing about.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 08, 2023, 11:01:11 AM
And what is to be gained, in dialogue, in fellowship, or in anything by continually pointing that out. Just ignore what you don't like.
There are times here when I might be inclined to say: "another example if Pastor Goofy's nutty conservatism."
I don't do that.
Which is why I did not just say that Brian's post was another example of Brian's goofiness, but analyzed his post and pointed out why I think it doesn't work.


I did post my post after you had posted this.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 AM
Brian, I'm trying to decipher your last proposition. Are you actually arguing that because we cannot prove you wrong, that we cannot prove that God did not intend them to be the way they are, we should then assume that God did intend them that way? That makes little sense. At best, your assertion is unproven. Perhaps I cannot prima facia prove you wrong, but yours still remains an unsupported assertion.

That argument creates fluidity in Genesis 1. There isn't just light and darkness, there are times in between those two points. Similarly with land and sea. There are areas, like marshes, bogs, etc. that are both or neither. If we then apply that logic to male and female, there could be a fluidity between those two as some people claim about themselves.

QuotePeople are not twilight. Argument by analogy works best, if it works at all, when the analogy compares similar things. You want to argue from the day/night cycle and shoreline wetlands to gender and sexuality in humans. Those things that you compare have no commonality to drive the analogy. The comparison is purely arbitrary. You are assuming the result that you want and then arbitrarily assigning an analogy that sort of, kind of seems somewhat similar to prove your assertion. As a touchdown celebration among those who already believe what you're peddling, it kind of works. As a convincing argument, no.

It's an analogy of biblical interpretation of Genesis 1. It's an observation of the world God created.

QuoteThe analogy of mosquitoes, penguins, and platypuses is bit more cogent, they are at least alive. Still, mosquitoes and penguins are adapted to their geographic and ecological niches which dictate their characteristics. They are not, as you suggest, in between organisms but adapted organisms. The platypus is not, as again as you suggest, a cross between a duck and a beaver. It is not closely related to either. That it looks like it could be says nothing about its nature. And it is the nature, not primarily the appearance of the many human genders that you are arguing about.

Those analogies don't come from Genesis 1.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

John Mundinger

Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 08, 2023, 11:15:31 AM
Brian, I'm trying to decipher your last proposition. Are you actually arguing that because we cannot prove you wrong, that we cannot prove that God did not intend them to be the way they are, we should then assume that God did intend them that way? That makes little sense. At best, your assertion is unproven. Perhaps I cannot prima facia prove you wrong, but yours still remains an unsupported assertion.

I read what he is saying a little differently.  In a left handed way, he is suggesting that, because we are sinful humans, we cannot know.  Our reasoning is corrupt.  Worse, we have corrupted God's good creation.  We are incapable of discerning whether the attributes of creation, as we experience them, are the consequence of God's intention or the consequence of humanity's sin.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk