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LCMS Dystopian Future

Started by Jim Butler, May 16, 2023, 10:53:56 AM

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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 20, 2023, 09:03:59 AM
No. that is more like God's Service, or perhaps Service to/for/of God.
And I'm not concerned about the translation or the original; just the fact that I think "divine service" as the word for what you do on Sundays does not communicate very well. I don't know why you reject one of the English alternatives.
Part of me, resents the loss of Latin, but "Lamb of God" communicates better than "Agnus Dei."

The choice of "divine" might be due to Latin influence in the history of translation, such as ministerium divini or the like.

Terms such as "worship" are also common enough in the LCMS, such as Lutheran Book of Worship.

Weedon

#121
Father,

From Synod's relatively new *Companion to the Services*: "Thus, Jesus is the nexus point between heaven and earth not only for the delivery of God's gifts but also for returning human praise to God. Because He is truly present, because He is the temple into which we are incorporated as living stones, our praise is enacted with and through Him. There is both a Christological and trinitarian dimension to this. As true God, Jesus is the right object of praise but as true man, He is also its most perfect subject. As firstborn among many brethren, Jesus leads the chorus of praise to His Father by granting them His Word and Spirit. As He presides at His supper, He continues to lead the thanksgiving.... Though the Sacrament of the Altar is not in itself a sacrifice, it is the center focus of our sacrifice of praise." Page 38.

Michael Slusser

Quote from: Weedon on May 20, 2023, 12:49:10 PM
Father,

From Synod's relatively new *Companion to the Services*: "Thus, Jesus is the nexus point between heaven and earth not only for the delivery of God's gifts but also for returning human praise to God. Because He is truly present, because He is the temple into which we are incorporated as living stones, our praise is enacted with and through Him. There is both a Christological and trinitarian dimension to this. As true God, Jesus is the right object of praise but as true man, He is also its most perfect subject. As firstborn among many brethren, Jesus leads the chorus of praise to His Father by granting them His Word and Spirit. As He presides at His supper, He continues to lead the thanksgiving.... Though the Sacrament of the Altar is not in itself a sacrifice, it is the center focus of our sacrifice of praise." Page 38.
Interesting. But you have an ellipsis where one might expect to find the Sacrament of the Altar referred to as Eucharist and as an act of thanksgiving. My archbishop hasn't yet sent me a copy of this Companion to the Services; is it on the Synod website?

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Weedon

No, not available on line. Here's the omitted part: "as He did as the paterfamilias on the first Holy Thursday." That's all. By the way, I'd disagree with the statement that the Sacrament of the Altar is not in itself a sacrifice. The great dogmatician, David Hollaz, would too:

If we view the matter from the material standpoint, the sacrifice in the Eucharist is numerically the same as the sacrifice that took place on the cross; put otherwise, one can say that the things itself and the substance is the same in each case, the victim or oblation is the same.  If we view the matter formally, from the standpoint of the act of sacrifice, then even though the victim is numerically the same, the action is not; that is, the immolation in the Eucharist is different from the immolation carried out on the cross.  For on the cross an offering was made by means of the passion and death of an immolated living thing, without which there can be no sacrifice in the narrow sense, but in the Eucharist the oblation takes place through the prayers and through the commemoration of the death or sacrifice offered on the cross.  (Examen theologicum acroamaticum, II, 620)

John_Hannah

See the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogues, III. Agreement on Eucharist as Sacrifice.

Peace,JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Benke

I'm kind of happy to have brought the "Divine Service" topic into play.   The LCMS.org site is replete with resources for worship, under the heading "About Lutheran Worship," which describes "worship ministry" in the denomination.  As you drill down, there are more references and descriptions using the term Divine Service.  It's really worth examining in detail.  Lots of helpful information.  I imagine you may have had something to do with this LCMS tab, Will. 

Personally, I have always taken Divine Service as used in the LCMS to describe the Eucharist, and  further as a direct translation of Gottesdienst.  I think the reason for Divine Service is that doing a two-step toward Hauptgottesdienst and Gottesdienst as separate categories would really be confusing, and possibly lose the meaning of Gottesdienst as Eucharist along the way.  Because our non-Eucharistic services would then be Gottesdiensten and Eucharistic services Hauptgottesdiensten.  Teutonic overload.  And is all worship Divine Service?  That would so de-emphasize all of the responding to Word and Sacrament, and take such a time to convey, that basically people might simply give up and become Methodists.  Then strangely warmed they might open up This Far By Faith and get high on Jesus.

Of course, as mentioned along the way, there's an entire organization and blog dedicated, at least on paper, to "Liturgiae propria adiaphoria non est," or The Journal of Lutheran Liturgy.   Not "a" journal but "the" journal.  Its name is Gottesdienst.  It uses the Hoch Deutsch print type on its logo and to describe its participants (The Gottesdienst Crowd) so yes, we are Teutonic.  Though composed of synodical officials and bunches of rostered clergy dedicated to that task, it has wandered, badly in my opinion, off topic and offers through its authors blogposts and articles on all manner of additional non-liturgical matters in the LCMS always in the same way as non-adiaphoria (think the Confederate Flag or the new catechism etc. and so forth).  The folks who would shut them up or down officially are not really likely ever to do so. 


I'll add something dystopian that I will explore with God's people tomorrow morning.  Microsoft users have a Bing search engine with The New Bing Chat, its AI division described as your AI Copilot for the Web, up and rolling.  To check on it I took I Peter 5:7, a text for tomorrow's Divine Service, and asked my Bing Copilot to do this:  Write a paper for me on the topic of casting all your anxiety on God, listing the causes of contemporary anxiety, the dependability of God to remove it, the central role of Jesus as example and savior.

Thirty seconds later I received the outline of a paper including a really fine introduction and conclusion and three paragraphs headed
Anxiety and its causes
God and God's word on Anxiety
Jesus as the way to relieve anxiety
A half dozen key bible passages on the topic were provided, as well as a point by point way through the paragraphs.  The conclusion said "restate the fundamental point - the answer to anxiety is the care and concern of God who removes it.  Jesus is the answer to anxiety.  Finally, give some plans for action and response by readers."

Another week of sermon prep out of the way with the use under the direction of my personal Priest of All Believers, Copilot Bing.  Crazy!   

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

Michael Slusser

Quote from: Weedon on May 20, 2023, 01:17:18 PM
No, not available on line. Here's the omitted part: "as He did as the paterfamilias on the first Holy Thursday." That's all. By the way, I'd disagree with the statement that the Sacrament of the Altar is not in itself a sacrifice. The great dogmatician, David Hollaz, would too:

If we view the matter from the material standpoint, the sacrifice in the Eucharist is numerically the same as the sacrifice that took place on the cross; put otherwise, one can say that the things itself and the substance is the same in each case, the victim or oblation is the same.  If we view the matter formally, from the standpoint of the act of sacrifice, then even though the victim is numerically the same, the action is not; that is, the immolation in the Eucharist is different from the immolation carried out on the cross.  For on the cross an offering was made by means of the passion and death of an immolated living thing, without which there can be no sacrifice in the narrow sense, but in the Eucharist the oblation takes place through the prayers and through the commemoration of the death or sacrifice offered on the cross.  (Examen theologicum acroamaticum, II, 620)
Thanks for the fill-in.

Thanks also for the David Hollaz quote (not a name I recognize). Not currently writing, I imagine. "Acroama" in the Oxford Latin Dictionary is "an item in an entertainment; an act, turn." A long entertainment, it seems, if volume II alone runs 620 pp.+.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Weedon

From Schmid's *Doctrinal Theology of the Evangelical Lutheran Church* (an amazing compendium of the chief dogmaticians):

David Hollaz, born in 1646, pastor at Jacobshagen, rector at Colberg, died in 1713. His *Examen Theologicum Acromaticum* (1707) recapitulates with great clearness and compactness the results attained by his predecessors, under the form of questions and answers. It is "especially happy in its definitions," but in addition some of the faults of scholasticism in Quenstedt, it possesses already some of the characteristics of the succeeding period. (P. 671)

Weedon

P.S. I've heard my friend, Dr. Richard Stuckwisch, now the President of the Indiana District, capture Hollaz's insight there with the catch phrase: "sacrifice as noun, not verb."

J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: Weedon on May 20, 2023, 02:23:46 PM
P.S. I've heard my friend, Dr. Richard Stuckwisch, now the President of the Indiana District, capture Hollaz's insight there with the catch phrase: "sacrifice as noun, not verb."

AXIOS!

The Divine Liturgy speaks  of "offering"; "sacrifice" appearing only once in the opening dialog of the Anaphora

"Let us stand aright! Let us stand in awe! Let us be attentive, that we may present the Holy Offering in peace."

[response]

"A mercy of peace, a sacrifice of praise"

To my formerly Western ears, the "sacrifice" consists of the prayers of the faithful for the living and the departed which are presented with the UNconsecrated bread and wine.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Dan Fienen

Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 18, 2023, 04:55:49 PM
I am fine with orthodox hymns that reflect stem from any culture of people of any skin color. But they shouldn't be segregated into a hymnal just for those people. Call it Christians Hymns for Divine Service and put it in every congregation. Don't make a black hymnal for black peoole served by the black clergy caucus educated at tne black seminary. It was a bad idea then and a bad idea now.

My 8th grade class is in D.C. this week. Eleven are black, ten are white. None, I hope, care one way or the other. We didn't send two buses, schedule separate tours for them, or plan a segregated graduation ceremony like so many progressives these days seem to like.
So, what do you suggest, Peter? Come out with a new edition of LSB thicker by say 200 orthodox hymns gleaned from TFBF? Or just tell our constituents who like and wish to use African-American style worship and hymnody that their hymnody isn't suitable for Lutheran worship, or at least we can't be bothered to curate and produce a suitable selection?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dan Fienen on May 21, 2023, 02:18:21 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 18, 2023, 04:55:49 PM
I am fine with orthodox hymns that reflect stem from any culture of people of any skin color. But they shouldn't be segregated into a hymnal just for those people. Call it Christians Hymns for Divine Service and put it in every congregation. Don't make a black hymnal for black peoole served by the black clergy caucus educated at tne black seminary. It was a bad idea then and a bad idea now.

My 8th grade class is in D.C. this week. Eleven are black, ten are white. None, I hope, care one way or the other. We didn't send two buses, schedule separate tours for them, or plan a segregated graduation ceremony like so many progressives these days seem to like.
So, what do you suggest, Peter? Come out with a new edition of LSB thicker by say 200 orthodox hymns gleaned from TFBF? Or just tell our constituents who like and wish to use African-American style worship and hymnody that their hymnody isn't suitable for Lutheran worship, or at least we can't be bothered to curate and produce a suitable selection?


I know that one of the issues with LBW was keeping it thin enough to fit in pew racks. This meant getting special paper from England - thinner and whiter than in previous hymnals so that they could have more pages than in previous hymnals. This was quite noticeable when we went back to the "red" books (SBH) for an anniversary service. They remarked about how much harder it was to read: less white paper, less dark ink, and smaller type font.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

D. Engebretson

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 21, 2023, 02:46:26 AM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on May 21, 2023, 02:18:21 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 18, 2023, 04:55:49 PM
I am fine with orthodox hymns that reflect stem from any culture of people of any skin color. But they shouldn't be segregated into a hymnal just for those people. Call it Christians Hymns for Divine Service and put it in every congregation. Don't make a black hymnal for black peoole served by the black clergy caucus educated at tne black seminary. It was a bad idea then and a bad idea now.

My 8th grade class is in D.C. this week. Eleven are black, ten are white. None, I hope, care one way or the other. We didn't send two buses, schedule separate tours for them, or plan a segregated graduation ceremony like so many progressives these days seem to like.
So, what do you suggest, Peter? Come out with a new edition of LSB thicker by say 200 orthodox hymns gleaned from TFBF? Or just tell our constituents who like and wish to use African-American style worship and hymnody that their hymnody isn't suitable for Lutheran worship, or at least we can't be bothered to curate and produce a suitable selection?


I know that one of the issues with LBW was keeping it thin enough to fit in pew racks. This meant getting special paper from England - thinner and whiter than in previous hymnals so that they could have more pages than in previous hymnals. This was quite noticeable when we went back to the "red" books (SBH) for an anniversary service. They remarked about how much harder it was to read: less white paper, less dark ink, and smaller type font.

LSB actually used a more cream-colored paper to make it easier to read for the visually impaired. So did the Church of England in its newest hymnal, Common Worship.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

The simplest thing might be to incorporate the additional  approved hymns into Lutheran Service Builder.

Brian Stoffregen

#134
Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on May 21, 2023, 04:22:01 PM
The simplest thing might be to incorporate the additional  approved hymns into Lutheran Service Builder.

I was in an Augsburg Fortress workshop a number of years ago that discussed the delivery of products. (John Ylvisaker was also in the workshop.) We basically recommended using the internet as a means of delivering worship materials. There has been so much coming out so fast in the past decades, a new hymnal every 20 years just won't have the of the new stuff. Even the time the get something published, is so much slower than downloading off the internet.

In our dreaming, a congregation would have an account, they could look at and hear hymns, liturgical music, read texts, etc. When they ordered them, the cost for the materials would include the licenses to reprint them or project them for the congregation.

Note, the materials that would be available wouldn't be limited to just new stuff, but all the traditional stuff (including stuff in the public domain) could also be included.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

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