Concordia University Texas

Started by Birkholz, November 09, 2022, 03:37:26 PM

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George Rahn

"We had hoped for a thorough and transparent assessment of the University, but we found that there was no clear set..."

This is one example of how the university saw the visit.  No set standards or clear methods were offered by the St. Louis team.  Nor, per document, had there been any suggestions made by the team as to how to make improvements. The document goes on:  "Unfortunately, we were made aware of their concerns only after we had begun exploring a new governance
model and almost 9 months after the visitation."

Lots of mismanagement coming from St. Louis, seemingly.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: George Rahn on April 22, 2023, 12:05:30 PM
"We had hoped for a thorough and transparent assessment of the University, but we found that there was no clear set..."

This is one example of how the university saw the visit.  No set standards or clear methods were offered by the St. Louis team.  Nor, per document, had there been any suggestions made by the team as to how to make improvements. The document goes on:  "Unfortunately, we were made aware of their concerns only after we had begun exploring a new governance
model and almost 9 months after the visitation."

Lots of mismanagement coming from St. Louis, seemingly.
Seemingly. When you have a big disagreement and have only heard one side of it, it always seems like that. Have the jury vote after the prosecutor wraps up and before the defense attorney says anything and you'll almost always get a conviction.

D. Engebretson

Does it seem that CTX is heading toward being more of a Valpo than a Concordia?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Charles Austin

Peter:
But the second half of the sentence sends it off the rails. "...and actively seek ways to ensure that every population receives care, concern, and resources according to their unique needs." The completely changes the organizing principle from one community of individuals with various needs to a collection of communities. We move from the unique needs of individuals to collective needs of identity groups, which assumes that the needs of members in those groups are not unique individual needs but are determined according to membership in those subgroups.

Me:
What is your problem with "identity"? I am an elderly white male. My needs are quite different from those of a young Hispanic female. Beloved Spouse is visually impaired. Her needs are affected by that. A friend is middle age and gay and Jewish from an Orthodox family. His needs are different from those of another friend who is gay, Christian, clergy and affirmed by his family. African-American women who earn low hourly salaries have different needs than white women lawyers. Do you not think that the educational, religious, civic and social needs are affected by "identifying" as elderly, male, young, female, Hispanic, African-American, Jewish, Christian, gay, heterosexual, poor or rich?
Do you think such things don't matter (or should not matter) as we deal with our interacting lives? How could that be?
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

George Rahn

Quote from: peter_speckhard on April 22, 2023, 12:10:15 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on April 22, 2023, 12:05:30 PM
"We had hoped for a thorough and transparent assessment of the University, but we found that there was no clear set..."

This is one example of how the university saw the visit.  No set standards or clear methods were offered by the St. Louis team.  Nor, per document, had there been any suggestions made by the team as to how to make improvements. The document goes on:  "Unfortunately, we were made aware of their concerns only after we had begun exploring a new governance
model and almost 9 months after the visitation."

Lots of mismanagement coming from St. Louis, seemingly.

Seemingly. When you have a big disagreement and have only heard one side of it, it always seems like that. Have the jury vote after the prosecutor wraps up and before the defense attorney says anything and you'll almost always get a conviction.

That is why I used the word "seemingly." 

Michael Slusser

#65
I've been in evaluation and accreditation visits (on both sides) and never have I heard that the visitation team took more than a few weeks to deliver the report to the affected institution. If St. Louis can't do it professionally, it should get out of the visitation business. (Their visitation of CUW had a similar problem.) The CTX Board apparently gave up waiting after six months.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

RF

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 22, 2023, 12:37:44 PM
Peter:
But the second half of the sentence sends it off the rails. "...and actively seek ways to ensure that every population receives care, concern, and resources according to their unique needs." The completely changes the organizing principle from one community of individuals with various needs to a collection of communities. We move from the unique needs of individuals to collective needs of identity groups, which assumes that the needs of members in those groups are not unique individual needs but are determined according to membership in those subgroups.

Me:
What is your problem with "identity"? I am an elderly white male. My needs are quite different from those of a young Hispanic female. Beloved Spouse is visually impaired. Her needs are affected by that. A friend is middle age and gay and Jewish from an Orthodox family. His needs are different from those of another friend who is gay, Christian, clergy and affirmed by his family. African-American women who earn low hourly salaries have different needs than white women lawyers. Do you not think that the educational, religious, civic and social needs are affected by "identifying" as elderly, male, young, female, Hispanic, African-American, Jewish, Christian, gay, heterosexual, poor or rich?
Do you think such things don't matter (or should not matter) as we deal with our interacting lives? How could that be?

My question is why you choose to identify as white rather than Swedish-American or some other hyphenated term?  Have you succumbed to the government 'check-the-box' to keep us divided and distracted from what we all really are (hopefully human and not an AI bot)?  Just kidding, sort of.

RF

Quote from: D. Engebretson on April 22, 2023, 12:34:18 PM
Does it seem that CTX is heading toward being more of a Valpo than a Concordia?

Interesting question. I'm wondering if they will try for something like an ELCA/secular affiliation  -  a bit like Valpo on steroids.

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 22, 2023, 12:37:44 PM
Peter:
But the second half of the sentence sends it off the rails. "...and actively seek ways to ensure that every population receives care, concern, and resources according to their unique needs." The completely changes the organizing principle from one community of individuals with various needs to a collection of communities. We move from the unique needs of individuals to collective needs of identity groups, which assumes that the needs of members in those groups are not unique individual needs but are determined according to membership in those subgroups.

Me:
What is your problem with "identity"? I am an elderly white male. My needs are quite different from those of a young Hispanic female. Beloved Spouse is visually impaired. Her needs are affected by that. A friend is middle age and gay and Jewish from an Orthodox family. His needs are different from those of another friend who is gay, Christian, clergy and affirmed by his family. African-American women who earn low hourly salaries have different needs than white women lawyers. Do you not think that the educational, religious, civic and social needs are affected by "identifying" as elderly, male, young, female, Hispanic, African-American, Jewish, Christian, gay, heterosexual, poor or rich?
Do you think such things don't matter (or should not matter) as we deal with our interacting lives? How could that be?
Charles, you are an elderly white cisgendered male. Does that sum up your entire identity, the sum total of your needs, the totality of your desires, and a complete tally of your faults? Since elderly, white, cisgendered males have been determined to be, as a group, oppressors, do you personally identify as an oppressor, a beneficiary of your white privilege and therefor an enemy of BIPOC and guilty of harming them?


I also am an elderly, white, cisgendered male. I am also diabetic. Thus some of my concerns are the same as the concerns of many Black men and women. as well as Native Americans who also share my condition. I identify with them as diabetic and share their concerns over the price of insulin. We are all of us, despite being of different colors/races/ethnicities, oppressed by big pharma's exorbitant insulin pricing. (I go to one store and pay $25 for a vial of my insulin, another down the street and would pay $125 for virtually the same vial.) Or would you assert that I cannot understand the diabetic concerns of a BIPOC because I am a White diabetic?


The problem with identity politics is that it wants to establish rigid groupings and clump everyone into one of those groups. There are a myriad possible groupings based upon interests, life experiences, race and ethnicities, proclivities, etc. These groupings often cut across the lines of other groupings. My interests and concerns are shared by some groups into which I could be categorized, but those same interests and concerns may not be shared by others in other groups to which I belong. But identity politics would reduce me to certain characteristics and rigidly group me accordingly.


The problem is not that I do not recognize that different groups have different concerns, I know that. The problem is that I am unwilling to simply accept the groupings that some wish to impose upon me and everyone else and accept blame, guilt, or victim status according to how I have been classified rather than who I am.


Someone around here once said that life is messy. It is and it is too messy to simply pigeonhole people according into identity political pigeonholes.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 22, 2023, 12:37:44 PM

What is your problem with "identity"? I am an elderly white male. My needs are quite different from those of a young Hispanic female. Beloved Spouse is visually impaired. Her needs are affected by that. A friend is middle age and gay and Jewish from an Orthodox family. His needs are different from those of another friend who is gay, Christian, clergy and affirmed by his family. African-American women who earn low hourly salaries have different needs than white women lawyers. Do you not think that the educational, religious, civic and social needs are affected by "identifying" as elderly, male, young, female, Hispanic, African-American, Jewish, Christian, gay, heterosexual, poor or rich?
Do you think such things don't matter (or should not matter) as we deal with our interacting lives? How could that be?
My problem is treating the identity instead of the need. All it does is foster division and stereotypes. What "needs" do you have as an elderly white male that are unique to elderly white males? If the specific need is what justifies treating the identity box differently, why not skip the false logical link and just treat the need regardless of the identity box? Elderly people often need walkers. Walkers should be available to all who need them. We shouldn't give a walker to an elderly person who is perfectly able-bodied, nor should we deny one to someone who needs one merely because they aren't elderly. What needs do Hispanic females have that hinge on being Hispanic females? Technically my sister-in-law is a Hispanic female. Her needs are the same as my wife's, who is white. What needs to black people have merely by virtue of being black? Anything you can name is just an offensive stereotype. No "need" is interchangeable with an "identity" and treating them as though they are interchangeable is always wrong. CTX should be one single community of teachers and learners in a Christian environment who are sensitive to anyone's unique, individual needs, not the presumed "needs" that happen when people are treated simply an members of some identity group. 

Charles Austin

Peter:
My problem is treating the identity instead of the need. All it does is foster division and stereotypes.
Me:
No, it fosters unity among those with specific needs.

Peter:
What "needs" do you have as an elderly white male that are unique to elderly white males?
Me:
Holy cow, Peter! Even at your immature age, you don't know?

Peter:
If the specific need is what justifies treating the identity box differently, why not skip the false logical link and just treat the need regardless of the identity box?
Me:
Sigh. I give up.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 22, 2023, 03:56:22 PM
Peter:
My problem is treating the identity instead of the need. All it does is foster division and stereotypes.
Me:
No, it fosters unity among those with specific needs.

Peter:
What "needs" do you have as an elderly white male that are unique to elderly white males?
Me:
Holy cow, Peter! Even at your immature age, you don't know?

Peter:
If the specific need is what justifies treating the identity box differently, why not skip the false logical link and just treat the need regardless of the identity box?
Me:
Sigh. I give up.
You're simply obfuscating. Being black or hispanic or gay or whatever is not a set of special "needs" like being blind. Many people of those supposed "identities" experience none of the needs associated with that identity, and many people not of those supposed "identities" do experience the same needs. If growing up in poverty create a specific set of needs, fine, foster a community of people with shared experience growing up in poverty. But don't define them by that as though it is their identity. And certainly don't define people who are statistically associated with that particular need as though their characteristics bind them to that need, such that a wealthy suburban black professional's children should be defined by urban poverty.

There are no needs that are unique to elderly white males that don't feature a lot of overlap with some younger, or non-white, or female people as well. You won't name one because there isn't one. Trying to foster a community of elderly white males based on the shared needs unique to elderly white males would be ridiculous. It would lump you in with President Trump while leaving out your (hypothetical) elderly Asian next door neighbor who has the same needs as you. The community would not be based on the need but on the so-called "identity" associated with that need. And it would accomplish is the further atomization and alienation that increasingly marks our fracturing society. You may think (I would say erroneously) that you have needs unique to elderly white males. I would still urge you not to join a club advertised as an elderly white male club and instead find a club of people who actually share whatever needs you're thinking of.   

Dave Benke

Quote from: George Rahn on April 22, 2023, 12:05:30 PM
"We had hoped for a thorough and transparent assessment of the University, but we found that there was no clear set..."

This is one example of how the university saw the visit.  No set standards or clear methods were offered by the St. Louis team.  Nor, per document, had there been any suggestions made by the team as to how to make improvements. The document goes on:  "Unfortunately, we were made aware of their concerns only after we had begun exploring a new governance
model and almost 9 months after the visitation."

Lots of mismanagement coming from St. Louis, seemingly.

When the visitation team came to my alma mater, CUW, the word I heard from various and sundry was that the visitation had the same flaw in that standards and methods were missing.  Having served as chair of a Concordia board of regents, something typical in accreditation visits is the setting of the standards and methods right up front.  That can/could/should be done in an ecclesiastical visitation as well.  That would involve an open-ended advance notice of who was doing the visitation and why/how they were selected in terms of determining what seemed to me in both cases a central issue - what is Lutheran identity and how is it taught and caught on this campus.

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Dave Benke on April 22, 2023, 04:18:47 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on April 22, 2023, 12:05:30 PM
"We had hoped for a thorough and transparent assessment of the University, but we found that there was no clear set..."

This is one example of how the university saw the visit.  No set standards or clear methods were offered by the St. Louis team.  Nor, per document, had there been any suggestions made by the team as to how to make improvements. The document goes on:  "Unfortunately, we were made aware of their concerns only after we had begun exploring a new governance
model and almost 9 months after the visitation."

Lots of mismanagement coming from St. Louis, seemingly.

When the visitation team came to my alma mater, CUW, the word I heard from various and sundry was that the visitation had the same flaw in that standards and methods were missing.  Having served as chair of a Concordia board of regents, something typical in accreditation visits is the setting of the standards and methods right up front.  That can/could/should be done in an ecclesiastical visitation as well.  That would involve an open-ended advance notice of who was doing the visitation and why/how they were selected in terms of determining what seemed to me in both cases a central issue - what is Lutheran identity and how is it taught and caught on this campus.

Dave Benke
Lutheran School Accreditation has fairly objective standards. How is the Bible/catechism taught. Is there visible Christian symbolism throughout the decor. What is the role of chapel and the pastor in the school. Are the teachers called or hired. That sort of thing. Somewhat subjective, but fairly easy to score on a scale of 1-5. That doesn't work very well with a university. What were you and your visitation teams looking for? How did you encourage a college to be "more Lutheran"?   

D. Engebretson

The report highlights the visitation team's disappointment in how we handle social issues. However, we want to emphasize that we have never received clear guidance from the LCMS or the CUS on how they would expect our colleges to serve people from diverse racial backgrounds or sexual identities. Despite this lack of direction, we have
remained true to our Lutheran identity while serving our Central Texas community. We believe that our commitment
to DEI reflects our values and mission, and we are committed to continuing to address these issues in a way
consistent with our Christian and Lutheran identity.


It would be helpful to specifically know how they serve people from "diverse...sexual identities," especially in light of the usual accepted principles of DEI.  To what degree do they accommodate people from "diverse..sexual identities"? 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

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