Sexuality Debate: Still No Decision

Started by Richard Johnson, August 10, 2007, 12:20:18 PM

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djbaer

I stand well corrected.  The point I was trying to make was that some folks would see this as less drastic.



bmj

Quote from: jafrahm on August 10, 2007, 04:30:30 PM
I'm not saying I'm surprised that the ELCA has gone down this path - even to debate this subject.  It makes perfect sense in a church body that ordains women to be pastors that they would eventually see nothing wrong with homosexuality.  There is a distortion of the iconography between Christ and His Bride, the Church. 

The denial of the third use of the law, gospel reductionism, and gnosticizing tendencies are made for each other and have tremendous synergy in that regard.

The incarnation is whittled away in the teaching.  Fellowship with Calvinists and Zwinglians doesn't help the cause of Lutheranism either.  None of this is evangelical or catholic.

It is sad.  I doubt that a great percentage of the laity grasp the magnitude of the tragedy, the heritage lost, etc.  Sad to say if we keep our Garrison Keillor cultural Lutheranism (which is nothing but pure ridicule and disdain toward Lutherans) people often seem to be happy, even if they are unaware of their churches being a theological and liturgical husk of our former selves.

I found the following link discussing a link between acceptance of contraception and this issue.  The article is by Raymond Dennehy, a Professor of Philosophy at the University of San Francisco.

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/dennehy_homoscontrac_aug07.asp

The basic claim is that Contraception separates the sex act from procreation, and that is the link between it and homosexual acts, in his words, both are "by their very nature sterile". He claims that the He claims that the increasing call for "the right of same-sex couples to marry" is "the actualization of the contraceptive mentality".

The "procreative" component is a critical component to sexuality within marriage.  Kimberly Hahn discusses this in her book "Life-Giving Love: Embracing God's beautiful design for marriage"

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/2003/may2003p16_1333.html


Richard Johnson

Quote from: Christopher Miller on August 10, 2007, 04:55:08 PM
Why move the orders of the day?  Why not move previous question?

Because the former is a privileged motion, and you don't have to stand in line to make it.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: revklak on August 10, 2007, 05:31:40 PM
But does not one exception have the same effect as changing policy?
Does granting exceptional ordinations not officiated by synodical bishops change our policy?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

TravisW

Quote from: Rev. Ian Wolfe on August 10, 2007, 01:12:35 PM
Jim-

Some lady yesterday used this imagery of the rabbit in her discussions favoring the substitution.  She said that in some African ( I think it was African) thought they speak of the Holy Spirit not in terms of the dove but of the Rabbit.  This imagery suggests (she said) that we need to be attentave to where the rabbit pops up and speeds along...something to that effect.  Don't worry about not getting it, I don't get it either.  

Wow, I was going to lurk and read a while longer, but I have to comment on that remarkably bad metaphor.  I always thought that the Holy Spirit came to us, not that he was a rabbit that we chase like a bunch of Elmer Fudds. 


MaddogLutheran

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 10, 2007, 08:28:50 PM
Quote from: revklak on August 10, 2007, 05:31:40 PM
But does not one exception have the same effect as changing policy?
Does granting exceptional ordinations not officiated by synodical bishops change our policy?
I don't know whether it changes policy (seems a metaphysical question), but aren't those pastors not ordained by a bishop ineligible for service in the Episcopal Church?  So there are consequences to the exception.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: TravisW on August 10, 2007, 08:49:48 PM
Wow, I was going to lurk and read a while longer, but I have to comment on that remarkably bad metaphor.  I always thought that the Holy Spirit came to us, not that he was a rabbit that we chase like a bunch of Elmer Fudds. 
I think that analogy was that the rabbit jumps up here and there, not how we might program it. As such, it isn't too different from saying the Spirit is like the wind. Sometimes it blows, sometimes it doesn't. It's not under our control.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

scott3

Quote from: TravisW on August 10, 2007, 08:49:48 PM
Quote from: Rev. Ian Wolfe on August 10, 2007, 01:12:35 PM
Jim-

Some lady yesterday used this imagery of the rabbit in her discussions favoring the substitution.  She said that in some African ( I think it was African) thought they speak of the Holy Spirit not in terms of the dove but of the Rabbit.  This imagery suggests (she said) that we need to be attentave to where the rabbit pops up and speeds along...something to that effect.  Don't worry about not getting it, I don't get it either.  

Wow, I was going to lurk and read a while longer, but I have to comment on that remarkably bad metaphor.  I always thought that the Holy Spirit came to us, not that he was a rabbit that we chase like a bunch of Elmer Fudds. 



LOL (really, I did!) -- that made me chuckle woo wascawwy wabbit!

J. Thomas Shelley

#38
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 10, 2007, 09:16:57 PM
Quote from: TravisW on August 10, 2007, 08:49:48 PM
Wow, I was going to lurk and read a while longer, but I have to comment on that remarkably bad metaphor.  I always thought that the Holy Spirit came to us, not that he was a rabbit that we chase like a bunch of Elmer Fudds. 
I think that analogy was that the rabbit jumps up here and there, not how we might program it. As such, it isn't too different from saying the Spirit is like the wind. Sometimes it blows, sometimes it doesn't. It's not under our control.

If we are going to liken the Holy Spirit to a mammalian species then I would suggest the cat; for cats purr when and where they please.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Charles_Austin

And some ancient Egyptians thought cats were gods. (And cats have never forgotten that.)

Maryland Brian

Quote from: Charles_Austin on August 11, 2007, 08:23:20 AM
And some ancient Egyptians thought cats were gods. (And cats have never forgotten that.)

That's why God invented hunting dogs - to keep them furballs off other people's property.  And to protect wild birds and baby rabbits.

MD Brian

revklak

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 10, 2007, 08:28:50 PM
Quote from: revklak on August 10, 2007, 05:31:40 PM
But does not one exception have the same effect as changing policy?
Does granting exceptional ordinations not officiated by synodical bishops change our policy?

OK - maybe policy isn't the issue here.

It just seems to me that whether you have a bishop or not (Sucession, etc) at ordination is not an issue that impinges upon our proclamation of the gospel, the Word of God, etc.  Nowhere does scripture command that we be part of the Historic succession.  Thus, in that case, "for the sake of unity and mission," I can understand it and see that exception as not really changing much - other than, of course, allowing said pastor to preside in an Episcopal congregation. (Maybe they don't want to anyway!)

An exception in this case would be an exception that needs to overlook God's Word and His will for creation and sexual relations.  It would basically say to those who still hold to orthodox teachings, we don't care how it impacts your theology and faith, we're going to do this anyway.  This is not a missional or unity issue -- it is a divisive issue: for most of the Church catholic, it is condoning and accepting sin.  (Some may not feel it is sin, but I still think until we are "of one mind" on whether or not homosexual practices ARE sinful or not, we cannot stand together on any of these issues of blessing and/or ordination.)  In this case: Exceptions accept behavior which God doesn't.

1Ptr5v67

Quote from: revklak on August 11, 2007, 09:30:57 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 10, 2007, 08:28:50 PM
Quote from: revklak on August 10, 2007, 05:31:40 PM
But does not one exception have the same effect as changing policy?
Does granting exceptional ordinations not officiated by synodical bishops change our policy?

An exception in this case would be an exception that needs to overlook God's Word and His will for creation and sexual relations.  It would basically say to those who still hold to orthodox teachings, we don't care how it impacts your theology and faith, we're going to do this anyway.  This is not a missional or unity issue -- it is a divisive issue: for most of the Church catholic, it is condoning and accepting sin.  (Some may not feel it is sin, but I still think until we are "of one mind" on whether or not homosexual practices ARE sinful or not, we cannot stand together on any of these issues of blessing and/or ordination.)  In this case: Exceptions accept behavior which God doesn't.

AMEN!
The above quote was made before the vote today,  but it certainly was prophetic,  and accurately describes the result of what happened at CWA.
fleur-de-lis

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