Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change

Started by Richard Johnson, July 26, 2007, 01:44:15 PM

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mchristi

Quote from: frluther1517 on July 27, 2007, 04:21:24 PM
LC/NA is already putting in place an extraordinary candidacy process for GLBT candidates to be ordained through networking congregations.

It should probably be pointed out, for the sake of clarity, that the Extraordinary Candidacy Process (ECP) is not a program sponsored by, created by, or administered by Lutherans Concerned/North America.  It was founded by a group called Lutheran Lesbian and Gay Ministries (LLGM) which formed after the San Francisco ordinations more than a decade ago.  The only relationship is that these various groups coordinate with one another (such as Good Soil), but they are distinct organizations.

Mark C.

mchristi

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 27, 2007, 11:21:49 PM
Quote from: Team Hesse on July 27, 2007, 09:21:59 PM
Mark Hanson is in favor of changes, but he's willing to take it more slowly than many are now trying to get it done.  When Anita Hill was ordained in St Paul Synod of MN, then-bishop Hanson said it was an invalid ordination.  I believe he disciplined the congregation via censure, because those were the rules, but it only lasted for a year.  Peter Rogness (who succeeded Bp. Hanson as bishop there) reinstated them because they had continued to be 'faithful members' of the ELCA during the censure (the cynical part of me reads: they kept sending us money).
My recollection is slightly different. I believe the discipline Bishop Hanson imposed included sanctions, (something stronger than censure). Bishop Rogness removed the sanctions, because he believed (rightly so, I think,) that it was not within a bishop's power and authority to impose them.

Brian is correct here.  Additionally, what I recall is that the sanctions were lifted, but the censure was not.

Mark C.

mchristi

Quote from: Pr. Steven P. Tibbetts on July 28, 2007, 06:25:42 PM
[Bishop Hanson has spoken of his support for gay and lesbian members of the church while a parish pastor, including bringing favorable "Reconciled in Christ" votes in his congregations.

A correction, Steven.  While the congregation that Bp. Hanson served before being elected the bishop of the St. Paul Area Synod is now a Reconciling in Christ congregation (note, also that it is with an "ing" rather than an "ed"), it become an RIC congregation after Mark Hanson was pastor there.  They did have discussions about it and I believe a vote on it, but it wasn't until he was already synod bishop that the congregation approved RIC status.

Mark C.

Deb_H.

Quote from: Mark C. on July 30, 2007, 05:33:21 PM
It should probably be pointed out, for the sake of clarity, that the Extraordinary Candidacy Process (ECP) is not a program sponsored by, created by, or administered by Lutherans Concerned/North America.  It was founded by a group called Lutheran Lesbian and Gay Ministries (LLGM) which formed after the San Francisco ordinations more than a decade ago.  The only relationship is that these various groups coordinate with one another (such as Good Soil), but they are distinct organizations.

This is true, except that if one can find a list of the people involved in the leadership of these organizations, they are nearly identical lists of names.   The same approx. 20 people are on the boards, committees, and organizational teams of LLGM, ECP, and LC/NA, or were when they were sending information to the Task Force members a few years ago...
Distinct organizations on paper, but they probably do more than "coordinate with one another" in person -- they are pretty much the same team.

Debbie

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Mark C. on July 30, 2007, 05:49:58 PM
A correction, Steven.

Well, Mark, "Reconciled in Christ" was the original name of the project, one used for much more than a decade, the name used when most RIC congregations adopted the Resolution, and the name still used when Pastor Hanson was elected SPAS Bishop.  Your correction noted, and accepted.

I may not have recalled Bishop Hanson's own statement accurately as to when his congregations passed the RIC resolution, but I definitely heard him taking credit for "opening" his congregations to openly gay/lesbian couples.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

scott3

#50
From the WordAlone listserve emails (and on their website):

Questions about Bp. Payne's presiding
at Communion service in Chicago

July 27, 2008


The Rev. Mark S. Hanson, Presiding Bishop Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Chicago, Illinois

Dear Bishop Hanson,

Bishop Margaret Payne of the New England Synod has announced that she intends to preside at a celebration of the Holy Communion at a special service during the Chicago churchwide assembly. This service - not a part of the regular agenda for the assembly - is to be sponsored by Lutherans Concerned/North America and others, and the preacher for this service is to be Mr. Bradley E.
Schmeling, a former pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

Bishop Payne's participation in this service raises many questions by us in Lutheran CORE.

Article 14 of the Augsburg Confession affirms that "nobody should publicly teach or preach or administer the sacraments in the church without a regular call." Mr.
Schmeling is no longer an ordained minister of our church and no longer has a regular call to ministry in our church.
How can Bishop Payne defend her participation in a service at which Mr. Schmeling is to deliver the sermon?

The ELCA is currently in the midst of a process toward developing a possible social statement on sexuality, for action at the 2009 churchwide assembly. A specific process has been developed for preparing this social statement. How does Bishop Payne's participation in this service affect the credibility of this process? How does her participation in the service lead toward peace, unity, and prayerful deliberation throughout our church on these matters?

Our church understands itself to be one church, with congregational, synodical, and churchwide expressions. Each expression of the church is to be an interdependent partner with the other expressions. How does Bishop Payne's leading this service reflect the polity of the ELCA? Are individual bishops and synods somehow exempt from the interdependence that we expect from all expressions of the church?

We object strenuously to Bishop Payne's serving as presiding minister at a Eucharist, for which Mr. Schmeling is the indicated preacher. We look to you to redress this matter. You are the only one who can do so! We ask that you address our concerns to Bishop Payne, in your role as chief pastor of our church. We also ask that you publicly express your disapproval for her decision to preside at the service.

When The Rev. Paul Egertson was called as a synodical bishop, he indicated that he would resign from the office, should his personal convictions prove to be in conflict with the official policies of our church. With great integrity, he resigned as a synodical bishop when faced with this situation. Is it not appropriate for Bishop Payne to do the same thing now?

We respectfully ask whether Bishop Payne's anticipated action is a matter of discipline.

Regards,
Paull E. Spring
Chair, Lutheran CORE Steering Committee


CC: Bishop E. Roy Riley
Bishop Margaret G. Payne


Eric_Swensson

Quote from: Team Hesse on July 30, 2007, 07:47:21 PM
Quote from: Mark C. on July 30, 2007, 05:33:21 PM
It should probably be pointed out, for the sake of clarity, that the Extraordinary Candidacy Process (ECP) is not a program sponsored by, created by, or administered by Lutherans Concerned/North America.  It was founded by a group called Lutheran Lesbian and Gay Ministries (LLGM) which formed after the San Francisco ordinations more than a decade ago.  The only relationship is that these various groups coordinate with one another (such as Good Soil), but they are distinct organizations.

This is true, except that if one can find a list of the people involved in the leadership of these organizations, they are nearly identical lists of names.   The same approx. 20 people are on the boards, committees, and organizational teams of LLGM, ECP, and LC/NA, or were when they were sending information to the Task Force members a few years ago...
Distinct organizations on paper, but they probably do more than "coordinate with one another" in person -- they are pretty much the same team.

Debbie


Debbie is right. What would probably be fruitful would be to "follow the money," i.e. the effort to raise $2,000,000 in Lent 2006. From LCNA's web page, here is the organizations which share resources:

Extraordinary Candidacy Project
The Extraordinary Candidacy Project (ECP) was formed in 1993 to work with openly gay / lesbian / bisexual / transgender seminarians who are preparing for professional vocations in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). This project's focus has been expanded to include ordained and commissioned ministers.
goodsoil.org – Lutheran Alliance for Full Participation
goodsoil.org is the official website of the effort within the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) to eliminate the church's current policy of discrimination.
InfoX
Information Exchange, InfoX, distributes Lutherans Concerned literature and products to Lutherans Concerned chapters, members, congregations, and other interested parties.
Journey Together Faithfully
The 2001 Churchwide Assembly has mandated that ELCA engage in a study on homosexuality and a study on sexuality. The first is to deal with the blessing of same-gender unions and the rostering of persons in committed gay or lesbian relationships. The second is to lead to the development of a social statement on sexuality.
Lutherans Concerned in Canada
Lutherans Concerned in Canada is a Christian ministry affirming God's love for people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.
Lutheran Human Relations Association
Since 1953, Lutheran Human Relations Association has been involved in the struggle to eradicate racism and other oppressions. LHRA confronts the hard issues of human justice through a variety of Biblically based programs.
Lutheran Lesbian and Gay Ministries
LLGM empowers openly identified sexual minority people called to God's mission of ministry and witness.
The Naming Project
The Naming Project is a faith-based youth group serving youth of all sexual and gender identities. The primary focus is to provide a place for youth who are gay / lesbian / bisexual / transgender / queer / questioning to learn, grow, and share their experiences.
The Network for Inclusive Vision
The Network provides a public roster of church leaders committed to witness to the inclusive Gospel of Jesus Christ by fostering the full inclusion of sexual minorities (i.e. persons who are lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, or trans-gendered) in the congregational life and ordained ministry of the ELCA.
Soulforce
A journey to end the suffering of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered Americans.
THIS Obedience
Wingspan
THIS Obedience is a film that follows the Rev. Anita C. Hill and her congregation at St. Paul-Reformation Lutheran Church from their decision to commit "ecclesiastical disobedience" by ordaining Anita. Wingspan is the newsletter of St. Paul-Reformation Lutheran Church.
http://www.lcna.org/links.shtm

It looks like a huge movement doesn't it? However, for examples, goodsoil may not be much more than a website operated by Megan Rohrer. ECP may not be much more than Jeff.

Here we go. One of the top ten denominations brought to a standstill by a few dozen activists and a thousand well-meaning, liberal clergy. One of Saul Olinsky's community organizing success stories, eh?

frluther1517

Quote from: Mark C. on July 30, 2007, 05:33:21 PM
Quote from: frluther1517 on July 27, 2007, 04:21:24 PM
LC/NA is already putting in place an extraordinary candidacy process for GLBT candidates to be ordained through networking congregations.

It should probably be pointed out, for the sake of clarity, that the Extraordinary Candidacy Process (ECP) is not a program sponsored by, created by, or administered by Lutherans Concerned/North America.  It was founded by a group called Lutheran Lesbian and Gay Ministries (LLGM) which formed after the San Francisco ordinations more than a decade ago.  The only relationship is that these various groups coordinate with one another (such as Good Soil), but they are distinct organizations.

Mark C.


Thank you Mark C. for your correction.  However my point I think is still valid that ECP is still a branch through which GLBT candidates can be ordained and serve in a parish.  If the CWA votes in favor of the changes then this is a quick implementation of a practice that is already going on.  It still seems to me that any group or groups which have their own process by which one can be ordained is still acting as a synod on its own.  This I think is a mark of a clearly schismatic group. 

mchristi

Quote from: Team Hesse on July 30, 2007, 07:47:21 PM
This is true, except that if one can find a list of the people involved in the leadership of these organizations, they are nearly identical lists of names.   The same approx. 20 people are on the boards, committees, and organizational teams of LLGM, ECP, and LC/NA, or were when they were sending information to the Task Force members a few years ago...
Distinct organizations on paper, but they probably do more than "coordinate with one another" in person -- they are pretty much the same team.

Right now, there is just one person in common between the LLGM and ECP boards.  It would not be strange to see such connection, given that ECP was founded by LLGM.  LC/NA does not list its current board members on the website.  Yet it is quite true that the ECP is not a program of LC/NA and is not an arm thereof.  The various organizations to coordinate, but that really isn't the same as being branches of the same organization, which was the implication to which I was seeking to clarify.

Charles_Austin

ERic writes:
One of Saul Olinsky's community organizing success stories, eh?

I comment:
Not at all. Saul Alinsky would have been a lot more confrontational.

Eric_Swensson

Quote from: Charles_Austin on July 31, 2007, 12:39:45 PM
ERic writes:
One of Saul Olinsky's community organizing success stories, eh?

I comment:
Not at all. Saul Alinsky would have been a lot more confrontational.

Well, my name is not ERic, but Eric.

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