Pondering "justice" and the death of George Floyd.......

Started by Daniel Lee Gard, May 28, 2020, 06:15:19 PM

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Coach-Rev

Quote from: James on May 29, 2020, 05:01:22 PM
As I said above .. the video by the police cruiser looks damning ... but I saw a video of the arrest and handcuffing ... the suspect/victim sitting the ground against the brick store front ... then gap .. and the much circulated video ar the rear of the cruiser ... what transpired between the sitting suspect/victim against the wall and the cruiser video?  Where are the links ... show the goods .. simple enough.


Put another way ... what occurred just prior to the N Y Post video I linked to?

To put it still another way, James, there is absolutely NO justification for what transpires in the second video.  Any policeman or woman worth their weight in gold will tell you that whatever transpires BEFORE being cuffed is of no consequence once the cuffs are on and the subject was no longer a threat, which CLEARLY in that video, he was not.  At that point, the fight is over, and no use of force of any kind can be justified.

I understand the need to want to know what transpires between the videos.  I've searched for it also and cannot find it.  However, in the final analysis, it does not matter with the evidence of the second video.  He was cuffed.  He was subdued.  the "fight" was over.  There is no justification for squeezing the life out of a man for nearly 8 minutes AFTER these clear facts.
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

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Charles Austin

I'm not criticizing or correcting you, Pastor Kirchner. I'm simply adding a piece of information which I gained from a relatively inside source. A knee on the neck does not necessarily strangle you but it's likely to cut off your carotid artery.
I'm glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since "James" seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

DCharlton

#62
Quote from: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 07:05:57 PM
I'm not criticizing or correcting you, Pastor Kirchner. I'm simply adding a piece of information which I gained from a relatively inside source. A knee on the neck does not necessarily strangle you but it's likely to cut off your carotid artery.
I'm glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since "James" seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.

A third possibility is that the prolonged pressure on his neck led to a fatal spinal injury.  Three possible ways that prolonged pressure to the neck can be fatal.  Any reasonable person would expect prolonged pressure to the neck to cause harm.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

peter_speckhard

Any time a terrible crime is committed, it is always possible to go back and see it developing somehow. Malcolm Gladwell discusses this phenomenon at length-- something that seemed irrefutably obvious turns out not to be nearly so clear. But in this case, the question isn't whether it is possible to imagine a scenario in which we can have sympathy for the criminal (in this case the officer) in the sense of understanding how he could have been brought to that point (also in this case, I believe the killer and victim had worked together, so who knows what personal stuff may be in the back story). It is always possible to do that. But it is a question of lines that have to be enforced no matter how sympathetic. You can't excuse something merely because you can understand why someone might have been tempted/goaded/enraged into doing it. Otherwise you're stuck in total moral relativism. The idea that to understand all is to excuse all doesn't work. People are not automatons.

You don't have to buy a narrative or take a position on whether this is an exceptionally outrageous example of a larger pattern or an atypical event more emblematic of human fallen-ness than institutional corruption. You don't have to interpret in terms of race or law and order generally. You don't have to accept anybody's interpretation. But as a human being you do have to both think and feel that this was absolutely unacceptable in an unqualified sense.   

DCharlton

In some ways, I think this is parallel to the abuse scandal in the churches.  There will always be dangerous people who slip through the cracks, and the wrong kind of people are attracted to professions that afford people status and power.  The scandal in the churches has been about the way that perpetrators where dealt with.  Cover up, misplaced loyalty, coercing victims, black mail, abuse of power and other things perpetuated problems for decades.  In the same way, the majority of people in law enforcement aren't racists or people who misuse force.  The scandal is the system that permits those who are to remain and even advance in law enforcement.  Most of us in the ministry are aware of that kind of corruption in our own denominations.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 29, 2020, 07:05:57 PM
I'm not criticizing or correcting you, Pastor Kirchner. I'm simply adding a piece of information which I gained from a relatively inside source. A knee on the neck does not necessarily strangle you but it's likely to cut off your carotid artery.
I'm glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since "James" seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.

Thanks for the clarification, Charles. I simply don't understand where some are coming from. My emphasis on "the threat is eliminated," and, therefore, deadly force may not be used, is not a concept unique to law enforcement and legal fields. Anyone who has taken a conceal-carry class has the phrase "until the threat is eliminated" pounded into them. This isn't some pacifist concept.

This was absolute evil. It was not nearly as graphically violent as the beheading of Daniel Pearl (which I never should have watched. It gave me day-mares for weeks!), but the nonchalance of killing was similar. What a world!

My wife is quite upfront about things. She says that Derek Chauvin will be convicted, he will be sent to prison, and he will be killed there by inmates. She may be right.

Ah, humanity!   
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Newt Kerney

I hope that  the charges and punishment include State charges to make sure that the happy pardon pen of the current occupant of the People's House does not bail him out with a pardon as he has done to racist sheriffs, and others who have betrayed their oaths to serve.  ( a certain Navy Seal comes to mind)

Dan Fienen

It has been noted on Fox, that it has become standard training in police forces around the country to recognize that for a suspect to be placed or left on their stomach without hands cuffed behind their backs, much less knelt on,carries a high risk of killing the suspect and it is not to be done. But then that's Fox so it's probably wrong or hopeless biased.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

James J Eivan


Quote from: "Charles" "Austin" on May 29, 2020, 07:05:57 PMI'm glad we are both on the same side on this, especially since "James" seems to have gone off his already shaky rails, and that others here have noticed his terrible reactions. He may need our pity more Than our correction.
'"Charles" "Austin" seems rather anxious to have someone join him on his already shaky rails due to his disingenuous and otherwise minimizing comments pertaining to rightfully honoring our military on Memorial Day.  His repeated child like use of scare quotes unfortunately reflects his boorish selfish nature.


Perhaps this excursus into thread drift will lead to less thread drift in the future.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Newt Kerney on May 29, 2020, 10:43:21 PM
I hope that  the charges and punishment include State charges to make sure that the happy pardon pen of the current occupant of the People's House does not bail him out with a pardon as he has done to racist sheriffs, and others who have betrayed their oaths to serve.  ( a certain Navy Seal comes to mind)

Chauvin has been charged by the Hennepin County attorney, under state law. So rest easy.   ::)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Matt Hummel

While I know that some may consider this thread drift, as we ponder the killing of a defenseless black life, let us consider that the leading cause of death among Black Americans is abortion. They are being eradicated at rates disproportionate to their population percentage. When we as a society say it is a meet, right, and proper thing to kill black people indiscriminately on one side of the cervix, why are we shocked when someone does it on the other side? Thoughts have consequences.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Charles Austin

ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Matt Hummel

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 30, 2020, 10:06:28 AM
::)d

Thank you for your circumspect criticism. My point, in the face of this horrid injustice, is that the cop in question did not wake up that morning and say, " Hey, today would be a good day to kill a [defenseless black man]." He is part of the greater society's worldview. And part of that is that we have declared black lives as having intrinsically less value. I have the numbers to prove that, any pious protests to the contrary not withstanding. So why are we surprised at this so-called Law enforcement Officer's actions. They may be terrible. But they are not monstrous. They grow out of the mindset that we have created and allow to go on.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Charles Austin

Maybe you are right, Mr. Hummel, but I doubt it, and am not inclined to argue with you.
Except I will note that if the topic were global warming, the Ethiopian wombat, a World Chess Champion match or how boring Major League Baseball is, you would find a way for it to be about abortion.
Everyone carry on.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Matt Hummel on May 30, 2020, 11:38:02 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on May 30, 2020, 10:06:28 AM
::)d

Thank you for your circumspect criticism. My point, in the face of this horrid injustice, is that the cop in question did not wake up that morning and say, " Hey, today would be a good day to kill a [defenseless black man]." He is part of the greater society's worldview. And part of that is that we have declared black lives as having intrinsically less value. I have the numbers to prove that, any pious protests to the contrary not withstanding. So why are we surprised at this so-called Law enforcement Officer's actions. They may be terrible. But they are not monstrous. They grow out of the mindset that we have created and allow to go on.
I disagree. With this. We have not declared any such thing. But just as all police officers must deal with the reputation created by a few police officers, so all residents of high crime areas and communities must deal with the reputation caused by a few of of their number. The cycle perpetuates itself and is very difficult to reverse. But the effort to trace it back to its roots and undo it won't provide a way forward. There are no effects without causes, but there is moral agency at every step. The worldview you cite here seems to equate the advent of colonialism with the fall into sin.

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