Stanza 1“You Are the Way,” George W. Doane [Tune : Dundee]: LBW vs. ELW

Started by TERJr, May 10, 2020, 07:59:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Richard Johnson

Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 13, 2020, 10:30:47 AM
The interesting phenomenon is that even stipulating both translations have pedigree in earlier translations, it was entirely clear just from reading them, without any knowledge of which one came from which hymnal or who had changed anything or why, that more conservative folks would prefer the one and more progressive folks would be prefer the other. The question is, why? As a conservative, I can understand not only my own preference but also sense what motivates the progressives who disagree. That is, the exclusive claims of Christ are, well, exclusive, and a church built on a "Gospel of inclusion" will have a harder time grappling with them. There are people who are glad to quote John 14 up to "I am the way, the truth, and the life," but prefer, if possible, to stop before "No one comes comes to the Father except through me." My sense is that this same sensitivity is behind the progressive preference for the one version.

But what do the more progressive voices in this forum think is the motive behind the conservative preference for the other translation?

Conservatism.  8)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 13, 2020, 10:30:47 AM

But what do the more progressive voices in this forum think is the motive behind the conservative preference for the other translation?


Nostalgia. Especially when one already has the old language memorized.


Another explanation can come from personality type preferences. Some types (SJ) prefer tradition, while others (SP) prefer the new and different. Some notes I have on these types and churches.


One of the mottos of the SJs is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," so they tend to rebel at anything that may threatened their tradition or way of doing things.

SPs are the most fun-loving of all the types and seldom has the church been characterized as a "fun‑ loving" place. Worship was often a place where one had to be quiet, sit still, and seldom smile.

SPs may be more attracted to the free-flowing, Spirit-led, Charismatic congregation, where worship may be mostly unplanned, led by the spontaneous prompting of the Spirit. Prayers are never written or read from a book, but always impromptu, often uttered by anyone who feels led to pray.

SPs may be attracted to a mission congregation where everyone has to be active, often doing very practical jobs – setting up chairs, moving furniture around, etc. – as long as their job didn't become a rut.

SJs, in sharp contrast to SPs, desire structure and organization in a church, so that they will be told the proper way to act. If they were brought up being told, "Church isn't supposed to be fun," that is the way church is supposed to be.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

DCharlton

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 13, 2020, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 13, 2020, 10:30:47 AM

But what do the more progressive voices in this forum think is the motive behind the conservative preference for the other translation?

Nostalgia. Especially when one already has the old language memorized.

Another explanation can come from personality type preferences. Some types (SJ) prefer tradition, while others (SP) prefer the new and different. Some notes I have on these types and churches.


One of the mottos of the SJs is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," so they tend to rebel at anything that may threatened their tradition or way of doing things.

SPs are the most fun-loving of all the types and seldom has the church been characterized as a "fun‑ loving" place. Worship was often a place where one had to be quiet, sit still, and seldom smile.

SPs may be more attracted to the free-flowing, Spirit-led, Charismatic congregation, where worship may be mostly unplanned, led by the spontaneous prompting of the Spirit. Prayers are never written or read from a book, but always impromptu, often uttered by anyone who feels led to pray.

SPs may be attracted to a mission congregation where everyone has to be active, often doing very practical jobs – setting up chairs, moving furniture around, etc. – as long as their job didn't become a rut.

SJs, in sharp contrast to SPs, desire structure and organization in a church, so that they will be told the proper way to act. If they were brought up being told, "Church isn't supposed to be fun," that is the way church is supposed to be.


All 16 Myer-Briggs Types would exhibit their own preferences in taking a trip to Grand Central Station in Manhattan.  They would use different methods to plan their trips, different means of travel, different routes, different timetables.  They might even have different hopes for the trip.  Some types would want the trip to be fun, others would getting there quickly, still others would focus on price, a fourth group might want the trip to be educational.  Nevertheless, they have the same goal. 

On the other hand, a person who insisted that Kings Cross Station, London, was just another metaphor for Grand Central Station would be a fool.  The MBTI does not explain how a person who intends to travel to Grand Central Station becomes convinced that a plane ticket to England will accomplish his goal.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 13, 2020, 02:08:22 PM

Another explanation can come from personality type preferences. Some types (SJ) prefer tradition, while others (SP) prefer the new and different. Some notes I have on these types and churches.


One of the mottos of the SJs is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," so they tend to rebel at anything that may threatened their tradition or way of doing things.

SPs are the most fun-loving of all the types and seldom has the church been characterized as a "fun‑ loving" place. Worship was often a place where one had to be quiet, sit still, and seldom smile.

SPs may be more attracted to the free-flowing, Spirit-led, Charismatic congregation, where worship may be mostly unplanned, led by the spontaneous prompting of the Spirit. Prayers are never written or read from a book, but always impromptu, often uttered by anyone who feels led to pray.

SPs may be attracted to a mission congregation where everyone has to be active, often doing very practical jobs – setting up chairs, moving furniture around, etc. – as long as their job didn't become a rut.

SJs, in sharp contrast to SPs, desire structure and organization in a church, so that they will be told the proper way to act. If they were brought up being told, "Church isn't supposed to be fun," that is the way church is supposed to be.


The writer of these really despises SJs. 

Pax, Steven+
ISTJ
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 13, 2020, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 13, 2020, 10:30:47 AM

But what do the more progressive voices in this forum think is the motive behind the conservative preference for the other translation?


Nostalgia. Especially when one already has the old language memorized.


Another explanation can come from personality type preferences. Some types (SJ) prefer tradition, while others (SP) prefer the new and different. Some notes I have on these types and churches.


One of the mottos of the SJs is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," so they tend to rebel at anything that may threatened their tradition or way of doing things.

SPs are the most fun-loving of all the types and seldom has the church been characterized as a "fun‑ loving" place. Worship was often a place where one had to be quiet, sit still, and seldom smile.

SPs may be more attracted to the free-flowing, Spirit-led, Charismatic congregation, where worship may be mostly unplanned, led by the spontaneous prompting of the Spirit. Prayers are never written or read from a book, but always impromptu, often uttered by anyone who feels led to pray.

SPs may be attracted to a mission congregation where everyone has to be active, often doing very practical jobs – setting up chairs, moving furniture around, etc. – as long as their job didn't become a rut.

SJs, in sharp contrast to SPs, desire structure and organization in a church, so that they will be told the proper way to act. If they were brought up being told, "Church isn't supposed to be fun," that is the way church is supposed to be.

You missed the whole point of the thought experiment. Even without prior familiarity or knowing which came first or what hymnal they appear in, it was clear that conservatives would prefer the one translation and progressives would prefer the other. As a conservative, I can understand what motivates both sides while thinking my side has the better argument. My thesis here is that progressives do not and cannot understand conservatives nearly as well as conservatives can understand progressives. That is why progressives nearly always fall back on some kind of bigotry or ignorance to explain the motivation behind the conservative position. If even one person really has a racist or sexist reason for preferring the conservative position, that person is taken as typical; it frees progressives from the need to come up with a more plausible explanation for why anyone disagrees.

TERJr

Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 13, 2020, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 13, 2020, 02:08:22 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 13, 2020, 10:30:47 AM

But what do the more progressive voices in this forum think is the motive behind the conservative preference for the other translation?


Nostalgia. Especially when one already has the old language memorized.


Another explanation can come from personality type preferences. Some types (SJ) prefer tradition, while others (SP) prefer the new and different. Some notes I have on these types and churches.


One of the mottos of the SJs is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," so they tend to rebel at anything that may threatened their tradition or way of doing things.

SPs are the most fun-loving of all the types and seldom has the church been characterized as a "fun‑ loving" place. Worship was often a place where one had to be quiet, sit still, and seldom smile.

SPs may be more attracted to the free-flowing, Spirit-led, Charismatic congregation, where worship may be mostly unplanned, led by the spontaneous prompting of the Spirit. Prayers are never written or read from a book, but always impromptu, often uttered by anyone who feels led to pray.

SPs may be attracted to a mission congregation where everyone has to be active, often doing very practical jobs – setting up chairs, moving furniture around, etc. – as long as their job didn't become a rut.

SJs, in sharp contrast to SPs, desire structure and organization in a church, so that they will be told the proper way to act. If they were brought up being told, "Church isn't supposed to be fun," that is the way church is supposed to be.

You missed the whole point of the thought experiment. Even without prior familiarity or knowing which came first or what hymnal they appear in, it was clear that conservatives would prefer the one translation and progressives would prefer the other. As a conservative, I can understand what motivates both sides while thinking my side has the better argument. My thesis here is that progressives do not and cannot understand conservatives nearly as well as conservatives can understand progressives. That is why progressives nearly always fall back on some kind of bigotry or ignorance to explain the motivation behind the conservative position. If even one person really has a racist or sexist reason for preferring the conservative position, that person is taken as typical; it frees progressives from the need to come up with a more plausible explanation for why anyone disagrees.

"Leftwing people find it very hard to get on with rightwing people, because they believe that they are evil. Whereas I have no problem getting on with leftwing people, because I simply believe that they are mistaken (Sir Roger Scruton)."

JEdwards

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on May 13, 2020, 02:33:36 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 13, 2020, 02:08:22 PM

Another explanation can come from personality type preferences. Some types (SJ) prefer tradition, while others (SP) prefer the new and different. Some notes I have on these types and churches.


One of the mottos of the SJs is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," so they tend to rebel at anything that may threatened their tradition or way of doing things.

SPs are the most fun-loving of all the types and seldom has the church been characterized as a "fun‑ loving" place. Worship was often a place where one had to be quiet, sit still, and seldom smile.

SPs may be more attracted to the free-flowing, Spirit-led, Charismatic congregation, where worship may be mostly unplanned, led by the spontaneous prompting of the Spirit. Prayers are never written or read from a book, but always impromptu, often uttered by anyone who feels led to pray.

SPs may be attracted to a mission congregation where everyone has to be active, often doing very practical jobs – setting up chairs, moving furniture around, etc. – as long as their job didn't become a rut.

SJs, in sharp contrast to SPs, desire structure and organization in a church, so that they will be told the proper way to act. If they were brought up being told, "Church isn't supposed to be fun," that is the way church is supposed to be.


The writer of these really despises SJs. 

Pax, Steven+
ISTJ
Yes, my thought was that it is quite a "J" post for a self-described "P".

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk