Stanza 1“You Are the Way,” George W. Doane [Tune : Dundee]: LBW vs. ELW

Started by TERJr, May 10, 2020, 07:59:09 PM

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Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: DCharlton on May 12, 2020, 07:00:12 PM
At some point, it becomes apparent that we are not speaking the same language.  Eventually, the question becomes whether we are talking about the same religion or not.  We have heard about Catholic substance and Protestant principle, but what happens when neither substance nor principle match?  I truly wonder whether the editors of the ELW and I do not belong to different religions.


Could you clarify your objections to the ELW alterations to the lyrics? You began the discussion that you don't think that they say the same thing. Are you now going a step further and suggesting the alterations are heretical?


Frankly, I see more heresy in the original text that has us trying to find God. The ELW has Jesus finding us. More orthodox in my opinion. But it's possible that you and I don't speak quite the same language.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

DCharlton

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 07:39:34 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on May 12, 2020, 07:00:12 PM
At some point, it becomes apparent that we are not speaking the same language.  Eventually, the question becomes whether we are talking about the same religion or not.  We have heard about Catholic substance and Protestant principle, but what happens when neither substance nor principle match?  I truly wonder whether the editors of the ELW and I do not belong to different religions.

Could you clarify your objections to the ELW alterations to the lyrics? You began the discussion that you don't think that they say the same thing. 

I have given my objections on this thread and others over the last week.  Since almost all of my objections were addressed directly to you, there is no need to rehash them. 

QuoteAre you now going a step further and suggesting the alterations are heretical?

No.  I'm suggesting that dialogue is nearly impossible because we are speaking different languages.  I'm also suggesting that it might be time to admit we are dealing with two different religions.

QuoteFrankly, I see more heresy in the original text that has us trying to find God. The ELW has Jesus finding us. More orthodox in my opinion. But it's possible that you and I don't speak quite the same language.

What is one man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy.  Rather than calling others heretics, why not admit they represent another religion?

David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: DCharlton on May 12, 2020, 08:38:23 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 07:39:34 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on May 12, 2020, 07:00:12 PM
At some point, it becomes apparent that we are not speaking the same language.  Eventually, the question becomes whether we are talking about the same religion or not.  We have heard about Catholic substance and Protestant principle, but what happens when neither substance nor principle match?  I truly wonder whether the editors of the ELW and I do not belong to different religions.

Could you clarify your objections to the ELW alterations to the lyrics? You began the discussion that you don't think that they say the same thing. 

I have given my objections on this thread and others over the last week.  Since almost all of my objections were addressed directly to you, there is no need to rehash them. 

QuoteAre you now going a step further and suggesting the alterations are heretical?

No.  I'm suggesting that dialogue is nearly impossible because we are speaking different languages.  I'm also suggesting that it might be time to admit we are dealing with two different religions.

QuoteFrankly, I see more heresy in the original text that has us trying to find God. The ELW has Jesus finding us. More orthodox in my opinion. But it's possible that you and I don't speak quite the same language.

What is one man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy.  Rather than calling others heretics, why not admit they represent another religion?


Because we are not saved by our religion(s), but by God's grace.


I'm still curious about your specific objections to the alternate wording to the first verse of this hymn. What else besides removing "Father" language? I don't see that they replaced it with something less than Christian.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

DCharlton

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 08:48:47 PM
Because we are not saved by our religion(s), but by God's grace.

Well, in that case, no need to argue.  You adhere to whatever religion you believe to be true.  I'll do the same.  Let's just admit they are two different religions. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: DCharlton on May 12, 2020, 08:51:59 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 08:48:47 PM
Because we are not saved by our religion(s), but by God's grace.

Well, in that case, no need to argue.  You adhere to whatever religion you believe to be true.  I'll do the same.  Let's just admit they are two different religions.


Who was arguing?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 11, 2020, 06:23:59 PM

Nope. I don't see John 14 and the lyrics to be the same.

In The Hymnal Companion to the Lutheran Book of Worship, Mary Kay Stulken writes of Hymn 464, You Are the Way, "Based on John 14:6, this hymn was written by George Washington Doane and published in his Songs by the Way, 1824.  It was the only American hymn to be included in the Original Edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern, 1861.  Initially beginning "Thou art the way," the first stanza of the hymn has been rewritten."

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

DCharlton

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on May 12, 2020, 08:51:59 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 08:48:47 PM
Because we are not saved by our religion(s), but by God's grace.

Well, in that case, no need to argue.  You adhere to whatever religion you believe to be true.  I'll do the same.  Let's just admit they are two different religions.

Who was arguing?

I'm glad you agree.  Now that we acknowledge that we belong to two different religions, we can go our own ways.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on May 12, 2020, 09:04:00 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 11, 2020, 06:23:59 PM

Nope. I don't see John 14 and the lyrics to be the same.

In The Hymnal Companion to the Lutheran Book of Worship, Mary Kay Stulken writes of Hymn 464, You Are the Way, "Based on John 14:6, this hymn was written by George Washington Doane and published in his Songs by the Way, 1824.  It was the only American hymn to be included in the Original Edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern, 1861.  Initially beginning "Thou art the way," the first stanza of the hymn has been rewritten."


The Hymnal Companion to Evangelical Lutheran Worship, Paul Westermeyer writes: "Built on John 14:6, this hymn is a successive gloss across three stanzas on Christ the way, the truth, and the life. The last stanza then sums them up. It was written by George W. Doane (May 27, 1799-April 27, 1859), published in Songs by the Way (New York, 1824), and was the only American hymn to be included in the first edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern (1861), where its first line read 'Thou art the way.'"


It would appear in looking at different versions of the hymn that the first stanza has often been rewritten. And actually, LBW had more changes in stanza 1 from the oldest version I can find, than ELW does.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

JEdwards

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 08:48:47 PM
I'm still curious about your specific objections to the alternate wording to the first verse of this hymn. What else besides removing "Father" language? I don't see that they replaced it with something less than Christian.
Like many of the changed lyrics in the ELW compared to earlier hymnals, the primary problem is not that the new lyrics are inherently objectionable. Rather, the concern is that this change is part of a pattern: an obvious, almost neurotic preoccupation with suppressing forms of address, imagery, and even direct biblical allusions that are not in harmony with up-to-date progressive thought.  The goal seems to be not to supplement but to suppress traditional imagery and language. Masculine pronouns, military imagery, any suggestion of the urgency of encouraging unbelievers to confess Christ as Lord — all carefully excised in the ELW.  I have no doubt that someone with no knowledge of Lutheran history, but with an awareness of all the current fetishes of the academy, could be presented with all of the significant lyrical changes from LBW to ELW and identify which option is found in the "progressive" hymnal with 100 percent accuracy.
Jon

JEdwards

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 07:39:34 PM
Frankly, I see more heresy in the original text that has us trying to find God. The ELW has Jesus finding us. More orthodox in my opinion. But it's possible that you and I don't speak quite the same language.
The ELW language says that Jesus finds "all those who search". It also says "we flee to you". If you truly think the LBW lyrics are heretical for attributing salvation to human initiative, why do you not acknowledge that the same "problem" is there in the ELW lyrics?


Jeremy Loesch

Quote from: JEdwards on May 13, 2020, 03:18:48 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 12, 2020, 08:48:47 PM
I'm still curious about your specific objections to the alternate wording to the first verse of this hymn. What else besides removing "Father" language? I don't see that they replaced it with something less than Christian.
Like many of the changed lyrics in the ELW compared to earlier hymnals, the primary problem is not that the new lyrics are inherently objectionable. Rather, the concern is that this change is part of a pattern: an obvious, almost neurotic preoccupation with suppressing forms of address, imagery, and even direct biblical allusions that are not in harmony with up-to-date progressive thought.  The goal seems to be not to supplement but to suppress traditional imagery and language. Masculine pronouns, military imagery, any suggestion of the urgency of encouraging unbelievers to confess Christ as Lord — all carefully excised in the ELW.  I have no doubt that someone with no knowledge of Lutheran history, but with an awareness of all the current fetishes of the academy, could be presented with all of the significant lyrical changes from LBW to ELW and identify which option is found in the "progressive" hymnal with 100 percent accuracy.
Jon

I think you are absolutely right in what you have written. 

Was it Neuhaus who wrote that the most horrifying thing to see in a hymnal are the letters "alt."?

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

peter_speckhard

The interesting phenomenon is that even stipulating both translations have pedigree in earlier translations, it was entirely clear just from reading them, without any knowledge of which one came from which hymnal or who had changed anything or why, that more conservative folks would prefer the one and more progressive folks would be prefer the other. The question is, why? As a conservative, I can understand not only my own preference but also sense what motivates the progressives who disagree. That is, the exclusive claims of Christ are, well, exclusive, and a church built on a "Gospel of inclusion" will have a harder time grappling with them. There are people who are glad to quote John 14 up to "I am the way, the truth, and the life," but prefer, if possible, to stop before "No one comes comes to the Father except through me." My sense is that this same sensitivity is behind the progressive preference for the one version.

But what do the more progressive voices in this forum think is the motive behind the conservative preference for the other translation?

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: JEdwards on May 13, 2020, 03:18:48 AM
Like many of the changed lyrics in the ELW compared to earlier hymnals, the primary problem is not that the new lyrics are inherently objectionable. Rather, the concern is that this change is part of a pattern: an obvious, almost neurotic preoccupation with suppressing forms of address, imagery, and even direct biblical allusions that are not in harmony with up-to-date progressive thought. 


As one raised on the Service Book and Hymnal, whose congregation for several years used the ILCW's Contemporary Worship liturgies that led to the LBW, and who has used the Lutheran Book of Worship since its publication when I was 18, I think it only fair to note that several times a year I wanted to hurl the LBW across the Nave because of its alterations of hymn and canticle texts, both in modernizing the language (thee/thou to you, etc.) and in its attempts at "inclusive" language.  The LBW/BCP psalter suffers from this, too, most especially with inclusive language that hides the Church's practice from her very beginning of seeing Jesus Christ as "the man" being referenced 

And I'll also observe that there are a few times in which ELW restores the older English of some (usually well-known) hymns.  This particular hymn seems to go both ways, un-rewriting while also demasculinizing it.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

James J Eivan

Quote from: Jeremy Loesch on May 13, 2020, 10:17:55 AM

Was it Neuhaus who wrote that the most horrifying thing to see in a hymnal are the letters "alt."?

Jeremy
;D  Like !!


A perfect example ... recently quoted hymn verse from another thread .... from TLH


Ah dearest Jesus, Holy Child  Make Thee a bed soft undefiled
Within my heart that it may be... A quiet chamber kept for Thee."

Has morphed into

Ah dearest Jesus, Holy Child  Prepare a bed soft undefiled   
A quiet chamber set apart ... For You to dwell within my heart."


One of these days hymn editors will cease trying to improve on perfection. :o

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: James Eivan on May 13, 2020, 12:26:50 PM

One of these days hymn editors will cease trying to improve on perfection. :o

I think a survey of hymnals reveals that won't happen before the eschaton.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

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