Stanza 1“You Are the Way,” George W. Doane [Tune : Dundee]: LBW vs. ELW

Started by TERJr, May 10, 2020, 07:59:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

TERJr

LBW 464
You are the way; through you alone
Can we the Father find;
In you, O Christ, has God revealed
His heart, his will, his mind.

ELW 758
You are the way; to you alone from sin and death we flee;
All those who search for God, you find and by your grace set free.

How could these be considered equivalent?

Brian Stoffregen

The oldest version of the hymn that I can find comes from The Book of Worship 1867.


1 Thou art the Way: to Thee alone
From sin and death we flee;
And He who would the Father seek,
Must seek Him, Lord, through Thee.

2 Thou art the Truth; Thy Word alone
True wisdom can impart:
Thou, only, canst instruct the mind,
And purify the heart.

3 Thou art the Life: the rending tomb
Proclaims Thy conquering arm;
And those who put their trust in Thee
Nor death nor hell shall harm.

4 Thou art the Way, the Truth, the Life:
Grant us to know that Way,
That Truth to keep, that Life to win,
Which lead to endless day.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

One of the most variant readings is in Catholic Book of Worship III (1994). It is sung to the tune NICOLAUS by Nicolaus Herman, c. 1485-1561.

1 You are the Way: in you alone
From sin and death we rise:
Without your grace we nothing are,
In you all goodness lies,
In you all goodness lies.

2 You are the Truth: your Word alone
Full wisdom can impart;
Your Word alone transforms the mind
And purifies the heart,
And purifies the heart.

3 You are the Life: the empty tomb
Proclaims your victory.
And those who put their trust in you
Shall evermore be free,
Shall evermore be free.

4 You are the Way, the Truth, the Life:
Grant us that Way to see,
That Truth to keep, that Life to live,
That we your friends may be.
That we your friends may be.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

readselerttoo

Quote from: TERJr on May 10, 2020, 07:59:09 PM
LBW 464
You are the way; through you alone
Can we the Father find;
In you, O Christ, has God revealed
His heart, his will, his mind.

ELW 758
You are the way; to you alone from sin and death we flee;
All those who search for God, you find and by your grace set free.

How could these be considered equivalent?

They aren't equivalent.  The first indicates the proper way to God for the Christian.  It is through Jesus and only through Jesus that we come to the Father.

The second one is a bland disconnect referent to a god of some type perhaps God as Israel knows God.
The second does not name the name of Jesus Christ

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: readselerttoo on May 10, 2020, 10:29:57 PM
Quote from: TERJr on May 10, 2020, 07:59:09 PM
LBW 464
You are the way; through you alone
Can we the Father find;
In you, O Christ, has God revealed
His heart, his will, his mind.

ELW 758
You are the way; to you alone from sin and death we flee;
All those who search for God, you find and by your grace set free.

How could these be considered equivalent?

They aren't equivalent.  The first indicates the proper way to God for the Christian.  It is through Jesus and only through Jesus that we come to the Father.


To the question in the first, Can we the Father find? The answer is, No. We don't find the Father.


The second is better theologically, You (Jesus, the Way) finds us.

QuoteThe second one is a bland disconnect referent to a god of some type perhaps God as Israel knows God.
The second does not name the name of Jesus Christ


The original never mentions Jesus Christ, either. But we know that he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

David M. Frye, OblSB

Here's a compendium of fifty-two sources of the hymn text that color-codes by similarity to a selected version: https://hymnary.org/text/thou_art_the_way_to_thee_alone/compare.

In other words, you can pick one of the fifty-two versions and then see how other versions compare to that selected reference. There's also a way to put two versions side by side and see, in highlighted fashion, the spots where the wordings differ.
David M. Frye, OblSB

+ Ut in omnibus glorificetur Deus.
+ That God may be glorified in all things.

TERJr

Quote from: David M. Frye, OblSB on May 11, 2020, 08:56:36 AM
Here's a compendium of fifty-two sources of the hymn text that color-codes by similarity to a selected version: https://hymnary.org/text/thou_art_the_way_to_thee_alone/compare.

In other words, you can pick one of the fifty-two versions and then see how other versions compare to that selected reference. There's also a way to put two versions side by side and see, in highlighted fashion, the spots where the wordings differ.

Thank you very much! This is great!

TERJr

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 11, 2020, 02:35:02 AM
Quote from: readselerttoo on May 10, 2020, 10:29:57 PM
Quote from: TERJr on May 10, 2020, 07:59:09 PM
LBW 464
You are the way; through you alone
Can we the Father find;
In you, O Christ, has God revealed
His heart, his will, his mind.

ELW 758
You are the way; to you alone from sin and death we flee;
All those who search for God, you find and by your grace set free.

How could these be considered equivalent?

They aren't equivalent.  The first indicates the proper way to God for the Christian.  It is through Jesus and only through Jesus that we come to the Father.


To the question in the first, Can we the Father find? The answer is, No. We don't find the Father.


The second is better theologically, You (Jesus, the Way) finds us.

QuoteThe second one is a bland disconnect referent to a god of some type perhaps God as Israel knows God.
The second does not name the name of Jesus Christ


The original never mentions Jesus Christ, either. But we know that he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

For the sake of argument, in both cases, the hymn is addressed to Jesus. The ELW seems to me to go any length necessary to avoid the dreaded F word—fidelity to biblical text be damned.

DCharlton

A question: Is worship a form of confession as well as being a form of intimate prayer?

I can remember a time when the song "In the Garden" was out of favor in the Lutheran Church because it focused almost exclusively on private subjective feelings.  It never names God, nor does it include the rest of the Body of Christ.  The same complaint is lodged against praise music.  It tends to focus on "me and Jesus" and it often leaves the name of Jesus out.  The excerpt from the ELW seems to wander into the same territory.  It's as if someone would say, "I already know who I'm praising, because the one I'm praising is already here in my heart."  Its all private devotion, with no public confession.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: TERJr on May 11, 2020, 09:17:07 AM
For the sake of argument, in both cases, the hymn is addressed to Jesus. The ELW seems to me to go any length necessary to avoid the dreaded F word—fidelity to biblical text be damned.


Lyrics are not biblical texts. We talk about poetic license. Frankly, I'm more concerned about the theological misstep in having us "finding" the Father; or even by implication that we can "find" Jesus. It's not a game of hide and seek; and if God were to hide from us; it would be beyond our abilities to find God. From what we learn in Genesis 3, it was the sinful humans who tried to hide from God; but God sought them out.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: DCharlton on May 11, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
A question: Is worship a form of confession as well as being a form of intimate prayer?

I can remember a time when the song "In the Garden" was out of favor in the Lutheran Church because it focused almost exclusively on private subjective feelings.  It never names God, nor does it include the rest of the Body of Christ.  The same complaint is lodged against praise music.  It tends to focus on "me and Jesus" and it often leaves the name of Jesus out.  The excerpt from the ELW seems to wander into the same territory.  It's as if someone would say, "I already know who I'm praising, because the one I'm praising is already here in my heart."  Its all private devotion, with no public confession.


When "In the Garden" is understood as being about "me" then it is too subjective. When, as it was intended, it is understood as a statement by Mary (in the Gospel of John) of walking in the garden after seeing the empty tomb, it becomes a reflection on John 20. As I noted above, with some poetic license.

I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

TERJr

Quote from: DCharlton on May 11, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
A question: Is worship a form of confession as well as being a form of intimate prayer?

I can remember a time when the song "In the Garden" was out of favor in the Lutheran Church because it focused almost exclusively on private subjective feelings.  It never names God, nor does it include the rest of the Body of Christ.  The same complaint is lodged against praise music.  It tends to focus on "me and Jesus" and it often leaves the name of Jesus out.  The excerpt from the ELW seems to wander into the same territory.  It's as if someone would say, "I already know who I'm praising, because the one I'm praising is already here in my heart."  Its all private devotion, with no public confession.

David,
That's a very charitable reading of it and I'll give it some thought.
It seems to me that there is a place for confession, praise, and supplication, sentimentalist "me and Gee-zuz" subjectivity notwithstanding (because I make a terrible pietist). However, I'm still pretty sure in this case, those responsible for the ELW were aiming more at avoiding the F word and at that point it is not poetic license but a theological decision. If that is the case then we may not need to rehash what you and others have said well on the other thread.
Tom

DCharlton

Quote from: TERJr on May 11, 2020, 02:12:57 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on May 11, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
A question: Is worship a form of confession as well as being a form of intimate prayer?

I can remember a time when the song "In the Garden" was out of favor in the Lutheran Church because it focused almost exclusively on private subjective feelings.  It never names God, nor does it include the rest of the Body of Christ.  The same complaint is lodged against praise music.  It tends to focus on "me and Jesus" and it often leaves the name of Jesus out.  The excerpt from the ELW seems to wander into the same territory.  It's as if someone would say, "I already know who I'm praising, because the one I'm praising is already here in my heart."  Its all private devotion, with no public confession.

David,
That's a very charitable reading of it and I'll give it some thought.
It seems to me that there is a place for confession, praise, and supplication, sentimentalist "me and Gee-zuz" subjectivity notwithstanding (because I make a terrible pietist). However, I'm still pretty sure in this case, those responsible for the ELW were aiming more at avoiding the F word and at that point it is not poetic license but a theological decision. If that is the case then we may not need to rehash what you and others have said well on the other thread.
Tom

I am afraid I wasn't clear.  When I used confession, I used it in the sense of making a confession before the world, as in 1 Timothy 6:12-13.  It was meant to represent the opposite of subjective sentimentalism.  In this kind of confession, as I understand it, we bear witness to the world of the reason for the hope within us by naming names.   So, when we confess our faith using one of the Ecumenical Creeds, we not only name names, but we also add a brief narrative that distinguished the God in whom we trust from other putative Gods.  The Lord we worship is the one who truly died, was buried, and rose again, as opposed to the false Christ of Gnosticism, for instance.   

This verse serves as among other things a confession, as witness, before the world.  Not only does it name names, but it rules out other mediators between God and Humanity.

You are the way; through you alone
Can we the Father find;
In you, O Christ, has God revealed
His heart, his will, his mind.


This verse seems to speak a secret language that may be clear to insiders, but is opaque to the world.  Who is the one who is the way?  It doesn't say.  Who is the one who finds those who search for God?

You are the way; to you alone from sin and death we flee;
All those who search for God, you find and by your grace set free.


This verse seems to hide the Church's confession in vague language that seeks to remove any offense. 

So, to be a little more clear, let me rephrase my question:  Aren't the hymns we sing in worship supposed to, among other things, confess the faith openly before the world?  If a hymn fails to do that, but rather speaks a hidden language, is it appropriate for public worship?
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

DCharlton

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 11, 2020, 01:22:24 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on May 11, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
A question: Is worship a form of confession as well as being a form of intimate prayer?

I can remember a time when the song "In the Garden" was out of favor in the Lutheran Church because it focused almost exclusively on private subjective feelings.  It never names God, nor does it include the rest of the Body of Christ.  The same complaint is lodged against praise music.  It tends to focus on "me and Jesus" and it often leaves the name of Jesus out.  The excerpt from the ELW seems to wander into the same territory.  It's as if someone would say, "I already know who I'm praising, because the one I'm praising is already here in my heart."  Its all private devotion, with no public confession.

When "In the Garden" is understood as being about "me" then it is too subjective. When, as it was intended, it is understood as a statement by Mary (in the Gospel of John) of walking in the garden after seeing the empty tomb, it becomes a reflection on John 20. As I noted above, with some poetic license.

The question about it appropriateness for public worship has to do with whether the context is understood.  Something that is appropriate for private devotion might not be appropriate for public worship.  One of the concerns about praise songs that evidence a similar "me and Jesus" piety is that they fail to proclaim the Gospel clearly. Should hymns that are chosen for public worship proclaim God's Word to the whole world, or only for the initiated?
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

readselerttoo

Quote from: DCharlton on May 11, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
A question: Is worship a form of confession as well as being a form of intimate prayer?

I can remember a time when the song "In the Garden" was out of favor in the Lutheran Church because it focused almost exclusively on private subjective feelings.  It never names God, nor does it include the rest of the Body of Christ.  The same complaint is lodged against praise music.  It tends to focus on "me and Jesus" and it often leaves the name of Jesus out.  The excerpt from the ELW seems to wander into the same territory.  It's as if someone would say, "I already know who I'm praising, because the one I'm praising is already here in my heart."  Its all private devotion, with no public confession.

Glad you brought this facet up.  Indeed worship is directly a form of confession.  In our wildly diverse country even those self-identifying as Christians may be confessing other gods when in their hymn-singing they do not name the name of Jesus Christ.  And indeed the private me-and-Jesus stuff originating from the 19th century missed this vital connection between public worship and confession in both individual and corporate ways.

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk