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Started by J. Eriksson, February 28, 2020, 09:18:34 PM

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peter_speckhard

#6345
Quote from: RogerMartim on October 25, 2022, 08:12:07 PM
Over 1,000,000 people have died in the US from COVID; we don't know yet the long-term effects of the virus in those who were infected but survived. And yet some of you wonder, "What if...?"
So even given the evidence we have, which comes fairly close to proof at least in the sense of being able to compare differing outcomes based on differing responses to the pandemic, you think that it is not possible that some people made wiser choices than others? It is inconceivable to you that the people advising harsher and longer measures were simply wrong, and those who recommended less draconian measures have been vindicated? And further, given the general partisan breakdown of those differing approaches, that those who persisted in being wrong were doing so with ulterior motives? 

Rob Morris

Over 1 million U.S. deaths with Covid.

Now check these numbers: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Then come back and tell me school closures were the right call. I'll wait.

And we knew these age breakdowns from VERY early on.

Charles Austin

Pastor Fienen:
All Trump did was initiate a foolish vaccine development program that had no realistic hope of success.
Me:
The ex did nothing. He stayed out of the way. He may have nodded his head at some government program or initiative that set the drug manufacturers moving, but... The bizarre words from the White House during the early days of the pandemic cost lives.
P.S. Anybody listening to or watching the stories of Bob Woodward's taped telephone conversations with the Ex? Still think we were not in grave danger? And maybe still are?
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Tom Eckstein

#6348
Quote from: Rob Morris on October 25, 2022, 09:50:43 PM
Over 1 million U.S. deaths with Covid.

Now check these numbers: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Then come back and tell me school closures were the right call. I'll wait.

And we knew these age breakdowns from VERY early on.

Rob, I'd also like to know how many of these deaths were directly the result of covid versus deaths due to various other complications among people who happened to have covid at the same time.  I know of cases where people died of a heart attack but because they tested positive for covid their deaths were listed as covid related.   So, did the person have a heart attack as a result of covid?  Or did this person already have a severe heart condition and happened to be positive for covid at the same time?  I'm sure there are many other similar situations.  This article linked below shows the complextity of all this:

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 25, 2022, 10:30:31 PM
Pastor Fienen:
All Trump did was initiate a foolish vaccine development program that had no realistic hope of success.
Me:
The ex did nothing. He stayed out of the way. He may have nodded his head at some government program or initiative that set the drug manufacturers moving, but... The bizarre words from the White House during the early days of the pandemic cost lives.
P.S. Anybody listening to or watching the stories of Bob Woodward's taped telephone conversations with the Ex? Still think we were not in grave danger? And maybe still are?
When the public/private partnership that came to be known as Operation Warp Speed for the production of Covid vaccines was initiated, then Pres. Trump received withering criticism for proposing such a foolhardy initiative that had no chance of success, would give false hope and merely distract from Trump's Covid failures, and prominent Denocrats vowed never to be so foolish as to take a vaccine produced by such a  wasted effort. It was Trump's responsibility and failure. Suddenly when it succeeded, Trump had little if anything to do with it.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

#6350
Your set-up on the allegedly "predicted failure," Pastor Fienen, is erroneous.
In the Woodward/Trump tapes, when asked why didn't take more preemptive measures based on his understanding of the virus before the disease spread in the U.S., Trump said: "You didn't really think it was going to be to the point where it was."
But no matter. If The Ex had personally gone into the labs and swizzled test tubes, it would not counter the rest of the lies, greed, idiocies, and crimes of that administration.
BTW, Given the magnitude of the pandemic, the extent of the suffering, the damage to lives, and the impact on our society, it seems extraordinarily petty to ask how many were "really" Corona virus deaths. So what if ten percent, or 20 percent or even 25 percent of the one million deaths reported as Covid were not "really" Covid. We still have a lot of suffering and loss.
   "That was a terrible pandemic; a million people died."
   "Well, some of those deaths were from other things; actually only 750,000 died from Covid."
   "OK, then, so it wasn't so bad."
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Terry W Culler

Quote from: Tom Eckstein on October 25, 2022, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: Rob Morris on October 25, 2022, 09:50:43 PM
Over 1 million U.S. deaths with Covid.

Now check these numbers: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Then come back and tell me school closures were the right call. I'll wait.

And we knew these age breakdowns from VERY early on.

Rob, I'd also like to know how many of these deaths were directly the result of covid versus deaths due to various other complications among people who happened to have covid at the same time.  I know of cases where people died of a heart attack but because they tested positive for covid their deaths were listed as covid related.   So, did the person have a heart attack as a result of covid?  Or did this person already have a severe heart condition and happened to be positive for covid at the same time?  I'm sure there are many other similar situations.  This article linked below shows the complextity of all this:

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-are-covid-19-deaths-counted-it-s-complicated


The sister of a friend died last summer.  She was in the hospital for pneumonia, but she died of a ruptured aneurism in her brain.  My friend's nephew called him sometime later and said the hospital claimed she had died of COVID--that way they could get money from the feds where they couldn't for someone dying of a ruptured brain aneurism.  The woman's son was contesting the death certificate.  What a wonderful world, huh?  ???
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

Rob Morris

I agree that the numbers may not be accurate. My bigger point: we knew from almost the very beginning that children were not at risk, but we shut down schools anyway. Now, a commenter wants to claim that the number of deaths justifies whatever precautions were taken. I don't think that that is a defensible position. Not when you see the other harms the precautions have caused. And, ironically, those harms were disproportionately visited on our young. All while the virus was disproportionately affecting our elderly.

Charles Austin

In terms of the bigger issues, in the grand scheme of troubles in the world and what we have gone through the last three years, the harms "inflicted upon our young" are present and we should worry about them. But they are not the whole deal.
Our children do not have bombs falling around them; they are not starving because of famine; they are not living in refugee camps. if they fall behind a year in math skills, that is not a fatal situation. It can be fixed. But maybe this is an inspiration to strengthen our educational systems. to do more for the mental health of young people. To make sure that our schools are adequately equipped and our teachers properly paid.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

MaddogLutheran

#6354
Quote from: Rob Morris on October 26, 2022, 08:44:19 AM
I agree that the numbers may not be accurate. My bigger point: we knew from almost the very beginning that children were not at risk, but we shut down schools anyway. Now, a commenter wants to claim that the number of deaths justifies whatever precautions were taken. I don't think that that is a defensible position. Not when you see the other harms the precautions have caused. And, ironically, those harms were disproportionately visited on our young. All while the virus was disproportionately affecting our elderly.
Agreed, and put more charitably than I might have, considering the political cudgel it has been to feel good about owning the anti-science regressives, who didn't care about grandma dying.

To be clear, I do not object or think it wrong that schools were closed at the start of the pandemic.  We didn't know what we didn't know.  I'm specifically talking about the resistance to reopening, and being uninterested in the possible actual harm to student learning.  You don't get to act surprised now, or say there weren't any contraindicators at the time.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

MaddogLutheran

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 26, 2022, 09:18:28 AM
In terms of the bigger issues, in the grand scheme of troubles in the world and what we have gone through the last three years, the harms "inflicted upon our young" are present and we should worry about them. But they are not the whole deal.
Our children do not have bombs falling around them; they are not starving because of famine; they are not living in refugee camps. if they fall behind a year in math skills, that is not a fatal situation. It can be fixed. But maybe this is an inspiration to strengthen our educational systems. to do more for the mental health of young people. To make sure that our schools are adequately equipped and our teachers properly paid.
This is just ridiculous, bordering on the offensive.  Both with respect to Pastor Morris's post, which you did have a chance to read before composing this, and my subsequent, which you did not.

Whether schools should have remained closed has no connection, NONE, to whether teachers are properly paid.  Let alone any comparisons to students in a war zone.  Stop injecting your politics into this.  You will defend your tribe to the last character.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

RogerMartim

I don't know, Pastor Morris, death is pretty final, isn't it? So, inconvenience supersedes that? Despite the low numbers, children did die throughout the height of the pandemic. So, where did this idea that children weren't at risk come from?

Charles Austin

I only ask for some broader consideration and a look at reality. Our little darlings may have some tough times because of what we went through the last three years. Is that bad for them? Yes and no. If we are so concerned about them or any other segment of our population, then let's start talking about solutions, rather than lamenting the present situation.
My granddaughter is a senior in high school this year. She aced whatever prep she needed to provide to several colleges in order to gain admission. She is lucky to have the right kind of family, school district, friends and other means of support to get her through these tough times. All children do not have what she has. She is considering a career in physical and mental healthcare for children.
Knowing how self-centered so many in our population are, I fully expect a vast chorus of "O I suffered so much!" from people who really didn't.
Before the pandemic, it was clear that highschoolers from Korean and Indian (Sub-continent) backgrounds were trouncing in our "Americans" young people academically. And I'll bet they still are.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

David Garner

From an educational standpoint, the two best things to come out of the pandemic were 1) the realization of parents that they don't have to cede their kids to government schools in order to educate them, and 2) the realization of parents that what their kids are being taught is not what they would, themselves, teach them if given the chance.  It was a great commercial for homeschooling.  And beyond that, it was absolutely delightful watching teachers whine and moan about parents knowing what their kids are being taught.  A window into the mind of institutional elitism if there ever was one.  "If parents know what we actually teach their kids, they might want us to stop, and we know so much better than them."

I'm not denigrating teachers.  My oldest is an education major in her first year of college right now.  But the institutional elitist mindset ought to be stopped, and I'm counting on her to be one of the ones to continue returning those institutions to sanity and respect for those they serve (as most public school teachers already do -- it's merely a disturbingly high minority that wants possession of our children and their minds).

She was homeschooled by the way.  Her academics were strong enough to qualify her for the Zell Miller scholarship, which pays 100% of her tuition.  She graduated with honors.  So in addition to bringing a different perspective to public education, she's also getting a first-hand look at the difference between what her mother and a couple of local homeschool academies produced and what the public school system produces on average.  I'd wager she wouldn't trade her education at home, at Veritas Academy, at Inspire Homeschool Academy, and at St. Nicholas Orthodox Academy for that of her peers on a bet.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

Quote from: RogerMartim on October 26, 2022, 09:34:54 AM
I don't know, Pastor Morris, death is pretty final, isn't it?
No. That's kind of the point of this forum. ;)

Living in abject panic that one might get sick and die is not living at all. There are some common sense measures we take to remain safe, but there are also inherent risks we accept in order to live normal lives knowing that in the end everyone dies. Thus, we wear seatbelts, but we do not refuse to get in a car because there is a chance we'll be killed in it.

People have varying degrees of risk tolerance. The Covid disaster was that the least risk-tolerant imposed by fiat and force a manner of living on everyone else, even those who found that manner of living intolerable. And now we know it did not even make people safer, it just comforted the people who are comfortable with government control of their lives that theirs was the tribe in control.

My own parents had a long-standing habit of hosting children and grandchildren (and great-grandchildren) as well as friends and neighbors for "cocktails" every day from 5:00-6:00. No invitation or rsvp necessary, whoever came was welcome, and usually anywhere from two or three to ten or fifteen would show up. We briefly decided not to keep that up when Covid hit, then sort of took turns going over so it would only be a few people who could sit outside on the patio or with social distance inside. But my parents in the end made the conscious choice that would accept the risk of Covid in order to live normally with their loved ones. And they did. When my father died in February of 2021 (of other causes, not Covid) just shy of his 92nd birthday, we had a big funeral. It was controversial, but it was a the right call. Gathering for a funeral is a normal, important, human thing to do. It was also livestreamed. If you didn't want to come, you didn't have to. And some people with extreme health issues made the right call in not coming. But you weren't going to prevent those who did want to come from coming. Many other people lost loved ones and were denied the opportunity of a funeral because of the irrational panic that imposed a hyper-risk-averse ethic onto everyone.

You can think my parents were selfish and reckless for doing what we did. It is a free country, and fools have thoughts, too. But I think they made the right choice (and would think that even if my dad's cause of death had been Covid-related).

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