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Started by J. Eriksson, February 28, 2020, 09:18:34 PM

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Dan Fienen

#5265
Quote from: Charles Austin on October 21, 2021, 01:12:24 PM
It ain't rocket surgery.
Vaccinations prevent illnesses.
Vaccinations prevent deaths.
Vaccinations prevent transmitting the disease to others who might get seriously ill and die.
Those things are true beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you think they are not, I believe you have a real serious problem.
Where I live the vast VAST majoring of people now hospitalized with the virus have not been vaccinated.
Peter says "Well, gee, not everyone gets real sick and a lot of people don't die and sometimes the virus is just like a cold and maybe the 760.000+ people who died where just unlucky and blah blah speed limits and those who just got a little sick were 'those whose experience with covid was normal' and why don't we focus on them rather than all the icky stuff about ventilators and death?"
I find that obscene. "Those whose experience with Covid was normal"? As in a little fever, a cough or two? Tell that to the millions of people who were family, friends, co-workers of the 760,000.
I don't know what you consider a vast VAST majority. For Pennsylvania in September 74% of the people hospitalized for Covid were unvaccinated, 26% were. That is a very solid majority as unvaccinated, almost 3/4s. Even so, calling it a vast VAST majority seems a bit of a stretch. Were Minnesota's figures that much different? Overblown rhetoric, such as often employed by former President Trump, does not strengthen your case, if anything it makes it sound as if you are trying to compensate for a weaker case by shouting louder.


There is good evidence that for the majority of people, a large majority but I don't know if it is a vast VAST majority, getting vaccinated is the prudent course of action. The possible risk, even the currently unknown long term side effects of the vaccine seem well out weighed by the benefits of generally good immunity to a disease that while not as deadly as some, has proven to be more infectious and with a higher mortality and long term disability rate than say the annual flu. No need to over react and resort to exaggerated and overblown rhetoric to make a case that is already well supported and reasonable. That not everybody is going to agree is expected. Shouting at them or name calling won't make your case more effective. If you need the kind of emotional release that shouting at people, in person or over the internet, provides, perhaps you need to consult someone for that problem.


My instruction in communication and mediation as well as my own observation is that when one is trying to communicate and convince, lowering the emotional temperature of the conversation is much more effective than trying to out shout the other person, either by shear volumne or by rhetorical flourishes, harsh language, or exaggeration. Even if in the heat of the moment one could brow beat the other into agreement, such coercion rarely has a lasting effect.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: Dan Fienen on October 21, 2021, 02:27:10 PM

My instruction in communication and mediation as well as my own observation is that when one is trying to communicate and convince, lowering the emotional temperature of the conversation is much more effective than trying to out shout the other person, either by shear volumne or by rhetorical flourishes, harsh language, or exaggeration. Even if in the heat of the moment one could brow beat the other into agreement, such coercion rarely has a lasting effect.


This is most certainly true. 

I wish my hometown newspaper's boldly anonymous "Editorial Board" would take that to heart:

https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/opinion/editorials/2021/10/14/grow-up-and-get-vaccinated-already/8450707002/

They've evidently forgotten that more flies are caught in honey than in vinegar.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

RogerMartim

It amazes me that some on this board do not take COVID-19 seriously. Is there anything more horrifying than the statistic of over 140,000 children that have been orphaned in the US by this particular virus. Just the other day four young children lost both their parents because they believed there was something that was bugaboo about the vaccine. And it is also the idolatry of Self that seems to reflect what little regard we have of neighbor.

Charles Austin

We are not catching flies. Seems to me that the "honey" is the greater\ possibility of living.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

J. Thomas Shelley

#5269
Quote from: Charles Austin on October 21, 2021, 09:59:11 PM
We are not catching flies. Seems to me that the "honey" is the greater possibility of living.

So scolding, berating, and belittling is appropriate?

The CDC's youth vaccination commercial seem very sweet.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: RogerMartim on October 21, 2021, 08:23:56 PM

It amazes me that some on this board do not take COVID-19 seriously.


What do SPECIFIC beliefs and actions do you construe to be "taking COVID-19 seriously"?
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Charles Austin

There is a time, believe I, when being nice, being "understanding" or accepting and trying - with sweetness and cooing - to deliver an important truth to people who either resist it or don't want to hear it, one must abandon sweetness and cooing and say: "Hey! Listen up! This is the deal! Now get your butt in gear and do what you are supposed to do. It's damned important."
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

Charles Austin

J. Thomas Shelley:
What do SPECIFIC beliefs and actions do you construe to be "taking COVID-19 seriously"?

I muse:
Encouraging and following prevention mandates, such as masks, the necessary shutdowns, etc.
Getting vaccinated.
Getting the booster.
Urging others to get vaccinated.
Taking the extra precautions, like avoiding big crowds, washing hands, checking temperature.
Knowing when you might have been exposed.
Not trash-talking the precautions and those who urge them.
Is that so hard?
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 22, 2021, 03:21:58 AM
There is a time, believe I, when being nice, being "understanding" or accepting and trying - with sweetness and cooing - to deliver an important truth to people who either resist it or don't want to hear it, one must abandon sweetness and cooing and say: "Hey! Listen up! This is the deal! Now get your butt in gear and do what you are supposed to do. It's damned important."

What's with this continued cursing, Charles? I've noticed that you and Dick seem to think it's an appropriate form of emphasis. Is this something that, upon retirement from the ministry, becomes appropriate?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

I am sorry you are offended. I sometimes slip into New Jersey dialect.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. And look at this. Here's the old 1960s protestor and critic of our government as virtually the only "love this country" patriot in this forum.

peter_speckhard

The disagreement is about what works, what shut downs are necessary, what level of risk is tolerable, and whether vaccines should be mandated. It isn't so much a matter of what is hard or who takes disease seriously. We know as a piece of data, not an opinion, that many of the shut downs were not only unnecessary but continued to be enforced for ulterior motives (bargaining chip for teachers unions in Chicago, for example) despite doing great harm. Being opposed to that is not a refusal to take disease seriously. We know that masks in schools do no good. We know that because we have data from countries that don't make kids mask up in school. So being opposed to masks in schools is not anti-science or refusing to take disease seriously, it is pro-science and taking education seriously. Opposing mandates is simply a philosophical opposition to statism.

Most of these disagreements are not about whether contagious diseases are bad but about whether they are the only bad thing against which no other considerations come into play.

Michael Slusser

"What does your star sign say about your covid vaccination status? One Utah county crunched the numbers.
Leos are apparently most likely to be vaccinated, and Scorpios the least."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/21/vaccination-star-signs-utah-leos-scorpios/
QuoteThe Salt Lake County Health Department reported 5,091 positive coronavirus tests in the community in the past 14 days. More than 86 percent were among unvaccinated people.

"I do want to emphasize that covid and the vaccine are not in any way influenced by astrological signs," Rupp said. "So, please still get vaccinated — even if you're a Scorpio."

A fresh approach.  ;)

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

David Garner

Quote from: peter_speckhard on October 22, 2021, 10:06:00 AM
The disagreement is about what works, what shut downs are necessary, what level of risk is tolerable, and whether vaccines should be mandated. It isn't so much a matter of what is hard or who takes disease seriously. We know as a piece of data, not an opinion, that many of the shut downs were not only unnecessary but continued to be enforced for ulterior motives (bargaining chip for teachers unions in Chicago, for example) despite doing great harm. Being opposed to that is not a refusal to take disease seriously. We know that masks in schools do no good. We know that because we have data from countries that don't make kids mask up in school. So being opposed to masks in schools is not anti-science or refusing to take disease seriously, it is pro-science and taking education seriously. Opposing mandates is simply a philosophical opposition to statism.

Most of these disagreements are not about whether contagious diseases are bad but about whether they are the only bad thing against which no other considerations come into play.

I feel like this has been said over and over again, at least 200+ pages ago.

Yet it still seems to be missing those who need to hear it.  We can only speculate as to why that is.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

pearson

Quote from: Charles Austin on October 22, 2021, 04:38:12 AM

I muse:
Encouraging and following prevention mandates, such as masks, the necessary shutdowns, etc.


When my own doctor mandates that I take a specific medication, or observe a particular therapeutic protocol, I do it.  Immediately.

When the government (including government doctors) mandates that I take a specific medication, or observe a particular therapeutic protocol, it is time to reflect, gather information, analyze, calculate over all the available variables, pray, and make a decision; understanding that the decision may need to be adjusted as new information or new variables emerge over time.

You seem unable to make this simple distinction.

Tom Pearson

Dan Fienen

Quote from: David Garner on October 22, 2021, 11:11:44 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on October 22, 2021, 10:06:00 AM
The disagreement is about what works, what shut downs are necessary, what level of risk is tolerable, and whether vaccines should be mandated. It isn't so much a matter of what is hard or who takes disease seriously. We know as a piece of data, not an opinion, that many of the shut downs were not only unnecessary but continued to be enforced for ulterior motives (bargaining chip for teachers unions in Chicago, for example) despite doing great harm. Being opposed to that is not a refusal to take disease seriously. We know that masks in schools do no good. We know that because we have data from countries that don't make kids mask up in school. So being opposed to masks in schools is not anti-science or refusing to take disease seriously, it is pro-science and taking education seriously. Opposing mandates is simply a philosophical opposition to statism.

Most of these disagreements are not about whether contagious diseases are bad but about whether they are the only bad thing against which no other considerations come into play.

I feel like this has been said over and over again, at least 200+ pages ago.

Yet it still seems to be missing those who need to hear it.  We can only speculate as to why that is.
Probably a number factors. One is fear that us superior enlightened ones will be contaminated by those unclean crowds who refuse to be enlightened and cleansed by vaccines. Another is disdain for the stupid foolish hoi polloi who d--n well should do as they are d--n well told without so much back talk.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

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