Nominees for Concordia Seminary President Announced

Started by D. Engebretson, January 15, 2020, 12:18:42 PM

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Jim Butler

Quote from: Steven W Bohler on February 04, 2020, 01:12:14 PM
I'm pretty tired of the "DS3 fell from heaven" accusations towards those who prefer traditional liturgy.  Every LCMS church in this circuit, I believe, uses one of the liturgies from the hymnals (TLH, LW, or LSB) each Sunday.  But none -- NONE -- think that such is the only acceptable form of worship.  It is what they have used for years, even generations, and they appreciate the beauties and patterns found therein.  But "fell from heaven"?  No way.  Caricatures like that are less than helpful.  Especially if one wants to at least pretend to have a fair discussion.

I think this has toned down in the last 10 or so years. But thinking back to discussions on the old LTHRN-L list and in other places, I can definitely remember some folks, from my perspective, could not seem to differentiate between "Divine Service" and "Divinely Inspired Service." (I had one guy basically argue that the Divine Service was divinely inspired!)

While there still might be some folks out there arguing for their position, I think most pastors have Prez H's "live and let live" attitude (assuming everything else is orthodox, natch!).
"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

Dan Fienen

I have read material that at least approached that attitude, that DS3 fell from heaven. I'm thinking of the group that puts out Gottesdienst whose motto is "Leitourgiaw propria adiaphoria non est." As I recall their contention is not so much specifically DS3 but traditional Lutheran liturgy in general. I've actually encountered more people however who would insist that some form of contemporary liturgy be used and traditional worship is anti-mission and disrespectful of those who are not born and bred Lutherans. They can be at least as much of "Liturgy Nazis" as those who will only use traditional forms and pride themselves on having everything done just so.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Mark Brown

Quote from: Dan Fienen on February 04, 2020, 03:39:32 PM
I have read material that at least approached that attitude, that DS3 fell from heaven. I'm thinking of the group that puts out Gottesdienst whose motto is "Leitourgiaw propria adiaphoria non est." As I recall their contention is not so much specifically DS3 but traditional Lutheran liturgy in general. I've actually encountered more people however who would insist that some form of contemporary liturgy be used and traditional worship is anti-mission and disrespectful of those who are not born and bred Lutherans. They can be at least as much of "Liturgy Nazis" as those who will only use traditional forms and pride themselves on having everything done just so.

Yeah, there are the "you must pay CCLI and sing the Nashville Top 10 or you are not missional" folks.  That is probably why we've had 4 terms of Harrison, et.al.  But that has sorted itself out.  The ability to continue to use the liturgy is not really in question anymore, well maybe practically from a congregational viability standpoint, but not institutionally from a get on the missional train standpoint.  What is in question is if the larger congregations, which for the typical Sunday attender or the stranger who walks in look no different than a non-denom place, have a place in the larger institution.  Will the Seminary help them train folks?  Do our gatherings ever reflect them?  Or do they remain "freelancers" who don't really get a seat?  And that is the question of "Is the Liturgy (or just the Ordo) of the essence of the church, or can Lutheran theology be given lived expression just as well in what looks like a charismatic form of prayer?" To what extent is lex orandi, lex credendi applicable?

Dave Benke

Quote from: Mark Brown on February 05, 2020, 12:50:16 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on February 04, 2020, 03:39:32 PM
I have read material that at least approached that attitude, that DS3 fell from heaven. I'm thinking of the group that puts out Gottesdienst whose motto is "Leitourgiaw propria adiaphoria non est." As I recall their contention is not so much specifically DS3 but traditional Lutheran liturgy in general. I've actually encountered more people however who would insist that some form of contemporary liturgy be used and traditional worship is anti-mission and disrespectful of those who are not born and bred Lutherans. They can be at least as much of "Liturgy Nazis" as those who will only use traditional forms and pride themselves on having everything done just so.

Yeah, there are the "you must pay CCLI and sing the Nashville Top 10 or you are not missional" folks.  That is probably why we've had 4 terms of Harrison, et.al.  But that has sorted itself out.  The ability to continue to use the liturgy is not really in question anymore, well maybe practically from a congregational viability standpoint, but not institutionally from a get on the missional train standpoint.  What is in question is if the larger congregations, which for the typical Sunday attender or the stranger who walks in look no different than a non-denom place, have a place in the larger institution.  Will the Seminary help them train folks?  Do our gatherings ever reflect them?  Or do they remain "freelancers" who don't really get a seat?  And that is the question of "Is the Liturgy (or just the Ordo) of the essence of the church, or can Lutheran theology be given lived expression just as well in what looks like a charismatic form of prayer?" To what extent is lex orandi, lex credendi applicable?

Several part response:
a) read if you haven't the column about and with quotes from Leonard Klein (+) in the latest Forum Letter.  It speaks to evangelical catholicity, the actual proclamation of Law and Gospel in Word and Sacrament, and the position we hold.  I don't think the words "lex orandi, lex credendi" are used, but it's along those lines.
b) Lex orandi, lex credendi and the worship dialogs often fail to take into account the communion of saints, the fellowship of believers including the pastor, who are worshipers and proclaimers.  Klein speaks to this under the topic of pastoral care.  However, care is not exclusively delivered by the pastor.  The now-former Lutherans who moved from Brooklyn to many parts of the country were/are always directed to a Lutheran altar/font/pulpit by me, ie another Lutheran fellowship of believers.  Those who have drifted or actively motored away have done so almost exclusively NOT because of worship style or format, but because of a lack of pastoral and community care for one another and for them as new arrivals.  It wasn't that the truth wasn't spoken; it's that there was no love.

Factor that into pastoral/spiritual formation at the seminary level - the fledgling ordinand has got to embody care and compassion not only in the delivery of the Divine Service, but in the leadership of the local Body of Christ.

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

James J Eivan

Quote from: Dave Likeness on CSL Presidential selection in 2020 on January 15, 2020, 04:47:26 PM
The LCMS Handbook now calls for a Search Committee to make recommendations from the
list of nominees for Seminary President.  The Search Committee consists of 3 full-time faculty
members at the St. Louis Seminary and 3 members of the Seminary Board of Regents. In the
second phase, the Search Committee adds 3 more full-time faculty members from the Sem.

Finally, the Search Committee recommends a list of at least 5 candidates for the Presidency.
There are 4 Electors........1 vote from the Seminary Board of Regents
1 vote from the District President on the Board of Regents, 1 vote from the LCMS Board of
Directors Chairman,  1 vote from the the President of the LCMS.

3 votes are needed for the election of a Seminary President.  He is called and elected to a
five year term which is renewable.


Fifty years plus earlier, the process is remarkably similar .....

Quote from: John H. Tietjen on CSL Presidential selection in 1968-69 in Memoirs in Exile, page 5
The seminary Faculty Committee submitted five names to the Electors from among 65 nominated candidates.  .....


The Electors were the president of the LCMS (Harms), the president of the Missouri District (Herman C. Scherer), the chair of the Board for Higher Education (Albert G. Huegli), and the seminary BoC voting as a unit.




Timothy Schenks

#140
Quote from: Dave Benke on February 04, 2020, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on February 04, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on February 04, 2020, 01:12:14 PM
I'm pretty tired of the "DS3 fell from heaven" accusations towards those who prefer traditional liturgy.  Every LCMS church in this circuit, I believe, uses one of the liturgies from the hymnals (TLH, LW, or LSB) each Sunday.  But none -- NONE -- think that such is the only acceptable form of worship.  It is what they have used for years, even generations, and they appreciate the beauties and patterns found therein.  But "fell from heaven"?  No way.  Caricatures like that are less than helpful.  Especially if one wants to at least pretend to have a fair discussion.

Hey, I called the other group equally "Nashville Worship" which is approaching the same level of hyperbole. 

But caricatures are helpful.  They should help each side to see the directional reduction to absurdity.  And that reduction is exactly why I'm pretty sure that if it was brought to a vote, even someone as loving of the liturgy as I am, would side with the Nashville crew.  Simply because the specter of their reduction is much less stress inducing.  Nobody in that camp is going to be on inquisition over having hands in the orans position for prayers or using the wrong incense, even if they might have trouble discerning exactly what this great boyfriend Jesus did that was so great to sing about.

Orans position - I like that recollection from Liturgy 102 at St. Louis.  Right thumb over left, hands not parting the waters or diving into the pool.

Dave Benke

Right thumb over the left, suppressing the "sinister" (latin left). I liked that one.
LCMS Layman

Dave Benke

Quote from: Timothy Schenks on February 08, 2020, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on February 04, 2020, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on February 04, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on February 04, 2020, 01:12:14 PM
I'm pretty tired of the "DS3 fell from heaven" accusations towards those who prefer traditional liturgy.  Every LCMS church in this circuit, I believe, uses one of the liturgies from the hymnals (TLH, LW, or LSB) each Sunday.  But none -- NONE -- think that such is the only acceptable form of worship.  It is what they have used for years, even generations, and they appreciate the beauties and patterns found therein.  But "fell from heaven"?  No way.  Caricatures like that are less than helpful.  Especially if one wants to at least pretend to have a fair discussion.

Hey, I called the other group equally "Nashville Worship" which is approaching the same level of hyperbole. 

But caricatures are helpful.  They should help each side to see the directional reduction to absurdity.  And that reduction is exactly why I'm pretty sure that if it was brought to a vote, even someone as loving of the liturgy as I am, would side with the Nashville crew.  Simply because the specter of their reduction is much less stress inducing.  Nobody in that camp is going to be on inquisition over having hands in the orans position for prayers or using the wrong incense, even if they might have trouble discerning exactly what this great boyfriend Jesus did that was so great to sing about.

Orans position - I like that recollection from Liturgy 102 at St. Louis.  Right thumb over left, hands not parting the waters or diving into the pool.

Dave Benke

Right thumb over the left, suppressing the "sinister" (latin left). I liked that one.

We are to be liturgically dextrous, adroit.

I don't know if anyone has seen or done this, but I attended a service led by one of our pastors years ago, and he made the sign of the cross with his left hand.  I had actually never seen that. 

So I counseled with him afterward in my gentle bishop's way never to do it again, but to make the sign of the cross with his right hand.  It's important, it's pre-verbal in the Christian tradition, and it's so assumed that it's never about which hand you use, but about which direction you start from in the "shoulder" portion with using your right hand.  He was not happy about that at all.  He stated that he was a lefty, that this was his default hand.

I gave him Tim Schenk's latin lesson.  Then I told him that there is no more left-handed person than I.  I am the lefty's lefty, a right-brained dude of the first water.  But I only make the sign of the cross with the right hand.  And at least when I was around, he went to his right hand. 

What are the thoughts of others on this?  Of course, someone without a right arm or who has suffered a stroke on the right side is exempted. 

At the very least, I think the next President of Concordia Seminary should know and be able to demonstrate the reasons for a right-handed sign of the cross.

Dave Benke

It's OK to Pray

Timothy Schenks

Quote from: Dave Benke on February 08, 2020, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Timothy Schenks on February 08, 2020, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on February 04, 2020, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on February 04, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on February 04, 2020, 01:12:14 PM
I'm pretty tired of the "DS3 fell from heaven" accusations towards those who prefer traditional liturgy.  Every LCMS church in this circuit, I believe, uses one of the liturgies from the hymnals (TLH, LW, or LSB) each Sunday.  But none -- NONE -- think that such is the only acceptable form of worship.  It is what they have used for years, even generations, and they appreciate the beauties and patterns found therein.  But "fell from heaven"?  No way.  Caricatures like that are less than helpful.  Especially if one wants to at least pretend to have a fair discussion.

Hey, I called the other group equally "Nashville Worship" which is approaching the same level of hyperbole. 

But caricatures are helpful.  They should help each side to see the directional reduction to absurdity.  And that reduction is exactly why I'm pretty sure that if it was brought to a vote, even someone as loving of the liturgy as I am, would side with the Nashville crew.  Simply because the specter of their reduction is much less stress inducing.  Nobody in that camp is going to be on inquisition over having hands in the orans position for prayers or using the wrong incense, even if they might have trouble discerning exactly what this great boyfriend Jesus did that was so great to sing about.

Orans position - I like that recollection from Liturgy 102 at St. Louis.  Right thumb over left, hands not parting the waters or diving into the pool.

Dave Benke

Right thumb over the left, suppressing the "sinister" (latin left). I liked that one.

We are to be liturgically dextrous, adroit.

I don't know if anyone has seen or done this, but I attended a service led by one of our pastors years ago, and he made the sign of the cross with his left hand.  I had actually never seen that. 

So I counseled with him afterward in my gentle bishop's way never to do it again, but to make the sign of the cross with his right hand.  It's important, it's pre-verbal in the Christian tradition, and it's so assumed that it's never about which hand you use, but about which direction you start from in the "shoulder" portion with using your right hand.  He was not happy about that at all.  He stated that he was a lefty, that this was his default hand.

I gave him Tim Schenk's latin lesson.  Then I told him that there is no more left-handed person than I.  I am the lefty's lefty, a right-brained dude of the first water.  But I only make the sign of the cross with the right hand.  And at least when I was around, he went to his right hand. 

What are the thoughts of others on this?  Of course, someone without a right arm or who has suffered a stroke on the right side is exempted. 

At the very least, I think the next President of Concordia Seminary should know and be able to demonstrate the reasons for a right-handed sign of the cross.

Dave Benke

That's up to the individual congregation. Christian freedom. If you were admonishing a pastor for that then you were abusing your position.
LCMS Layman

RDPreus

Quote from: Dave Benke on February 08, 2020, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Timothy Schenks on February 08, 2020, 06:27:24 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on February 04, 2020, 02:50:30 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on February 04, 2020, 02:09:34 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on February 04, 2020, 01:12:14 PM
I'm pretty tired of the "DS3 fell from heaven" accusations towards those who prefer traditional liturgy.  Every LCMS church in this circuit, I believe, uses one of the liturgies from the hymnals (TLH, LW, or LSB) each Sunday.  But none -- NONE -- think that such is the only acceptable form of worship.  It is what they have used for years, even generations, and they appreciate the beauties and patterns found therein.  But "fell from heaven"?  No way.  Caricatures like that are less than helpful.  Especially if one wants to at least pretend to have a fair discussion.

Hey, I called the other group equally "Nashville Worship" which is approaching the same level of hyperbole. 

But caricatures are helpful.  They should help each side to see the directional reduction to absurdity.  And that reduction is exactly why I'm pretty sure that if it was brought to a vote, even someone as loving of the liturgy as I am, would side with the Nashville crew.  Simply because the specter of their reduction is much less stress inducing.  Nobody in that camp is going to be on inquisition over having hands in the orans position for prayers or using the wrong incense, even if they might have trouble discerning exactly what this great boyfriend Jesus did that was so great to sing about.

Orans position - I like that recollection from Liturgy 102 at St. Louis.  Right thumb over left, hands not parting the waters or diving into the pool.

Dave Benke

Right thumb over the left, suppressing the "sinister" (latin left). I liked that one.

We are to be liturgically dextrous, adroit.

I don't know if anyone has seen or done this, but I attended a service led by one of our pastors years ago, and he made the sign of the cross with his left hand.  I had actually never seen that. 

So I counseled with him afterward in my gentle bishop's way never to do it again, but to make the sign of the cross with his right hand.  It's important, it's pre-verbal in the Christian tradition, and it's so assumed that it's never about which hand you use, but about which direction you start from in the "shoulder" portion with using your right hand.  He was not happy about that at all.  He stated that he was a lefty, that this was his default hand.

I gave him Tim Schenk's latin lesson.  Then I told him that there is no more left-handed person than I.  I am the lefty's lefty, a right-brained dude of the first water.  But I only make the sign of the cross with the right hand.  And at least when I was around, he went to his right hand. 

What are the thoughts of others on this?  Of course, someone without a right arm or who has suffered a stroke on the right side is exempted. 

At the very least, I think the next President of Concordia Seminary should know and be able to demonstrate the reasons for a right-handed sign of the cross.

Dave Benke

We were having a "game night" at church a few weeks ago, and I began dealing a hand of whist.  I don't know why (perhaps I was feeling contrary), but I dealt the hand counterclockwise.  Someone made a comment, but nobody called a misdeal.  Some folks get agitated about which hand one uses to cross himself.  Others get agitated when their partner leads into an opponent's invite.   

peter_speckhard

I accidentally reverted to my native left-handedness when saluting the XO before departing basic training. I had never once used the wrong hand to salute, but I had a whole bunch of papers in my right hand, and for some reason it just came naturally to use my left hand. He had straitened himself up for the salute, and when he realized I was using my left hand, his shoulders just slumped, and I could tell the countdown to his retirement was flashing before his eyes. But I quickly caught my mistake, shifted all the paperwork, and saluted correctly.

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

I'm not sure I was taught to cross myself at seminary. Think I learned it in the field. I did learn to make the cross over the congregation at the seminary.

All in all, I think a semi president could leave this sort of thing to others and focus on what's most important for the position: fund raising!
I serve as administrator for The Lutheran Study Bible group on Facebook.

Dave Benke

Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on February 09, 2020, 03:58:01 PM
I'm not sure I was taught to cross myself at seminary. Think I learned it in the field. I did learn to make the cross over the congregation at the seminary.

All in all, I think a semi president could leave this sort of thing to others and focus on what's most important for the position: fund raising!

Ha!  Of course, fundraising first. 

We were definitely taught to make the sign of the cross at the seminary in our worship and liturgy classes, exclusively with the right hand, and with the fingers placed in a certain way.  More importantly and substantially, we were taught to teach the sign of the cross as an important personal and corporate devotional remembrance of baptism.  We teach the sign of the cross prior to First Holy Communion.  Congregants at St. Peter's, and I would think at most Atlantic District congregations, make the sign of the cross at the invocation, at the absolution, at the Nicene Creed, at the Sanctus, at the reception of the Lord's Supper in both kinds, and at the benediction.  Some dip their fingers in the baptismal font at the entrance of the church and make the sign of the cross upon entering (or leaving) the sanctuary.  This in a local congregation that also features use of the tambourine by congregants, and plenty of clapping.  There is no pushback on making the sign of the cross, as it is part of both Word and Sacrament in the liturgy every Sunday and is always a remembrance of baptismal grace.

Here there is a difference between the LCMS and the WELS.  The LCMS guide for personal and family devotions invariably gives the making of the sign of the cross as a "may" rubric, and there are many (+) indicators for places where the sign of the cross may be made by those in the congregation during the divine service.  There is no such signification at any place in the WELS hymnal.  I'm actually amazed at discovering that.  Why would you NOT want to develop the habit of baptismal remembrance through the sign of the cross?

So - I now will go on record stating that no nominees for President of Concordia Seminary should come from the WELS or ELS.  Differently habituated.  Plus, I think they're ineligible.

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

RDPreus

I graduated from CTS in Ft. Wayne in 1979.  I don't recall anyone at the seminary teaching us anything at all about making the sign of the cross.  When I was ordained, very few of my LCMS parishioners made the sign of the cross.  In the parish I presently serve, perhaps 10% do.  When I served in the ELS, I don't recall any laymen making the sign of the cross, though some pastors did.  I don't cross myself, though I did when I visited Ukraine in the late 90s and early 2000s to teach at St. Sophia Lutheran Theological Seminary in Ternopil' because every Lutheran there did.  They did it the way the Orthodox do it.  Now I've forgotten which is which.  Don Deffner used to say that he crossed himself the Orthodox way.  So, if I ever take it up, that's the way I'll do it.  If I can remember.  Who goes left to right and who goes right to left and why the difference? 

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dave Benke on February 09, 2020, 05:26:18 PM
Quote from: Rev. Edward Engelbrecht on February 09, 2020, 03:58:01 PM
I'm not sure I was taught to cross myself at seminary. Think I learned it in the field. I did learn to make the cross over the congregation at the seminary.

All in all, I think a semi president could leave this sort of thing to others and focus on what's most important for the position: fund raising!

Ha!  Of course, fundraising first. 

We were definitely taught to make the sign of the cross at the seminary in our worship and liturgy classes, exclusively with the right hand, and with the fingers placed in a certain way.  More importantly and substantially, we were taught to teach the sign of the cross as an important personal and corporate devotional remembrance of baptism.  We teach the sign of the cross prior to First Holy Communion.  Congregants at St. Peter's, and I would think at most Atlantic District congregations, make the sign of the cross at the invocation, at the absolution, at the Nicene Creed, at the Sanctus, at the reception of the Lord's Supper in both kinds, and at the benediction.  Some dip their fingers in the baptismal font at the entrance of the church and make the sign of the cross upon entering (or leaving) the sanctuary.  This in a local congregation that also features use of the tambourine by congregants, and plenty of clapping.  There is no pushback on making the sign of the cross, as it is part of both Word and Sacrament in the liturgy every Sunday and is always a remembrance of baptismal grace.

Here there is a difference between the LCMS and the WELS.  The LCMS guide for personal and family devotions invariably gives the making of the sign of the cross as a "may" rubric, and there are many (+) indicators for places where the sign of the cross may be made by those in the congregation during the divine service.  There is no such signification at any place in the WELS hymnal.  I'm actually amazed at discovering that.  Why would you NOT want to develop the habit of baptismal remembrance through the sign of the cross?

So - I now will go on record stating that no nominees for President of Concordia Seminary should come from the WELS or ELS.  Differently habituated.  Plus, I think they're ineligible.


The sign of the cross is not a "may" rubric in the Small Catechism.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on February 09, 2020, 06:31:01 PM

The sign of the cross is not a "may" rubric in the Small Catechism.

In many editions of the Small Catechism published by North American Lutheran churches, Luther's instruction to make the sign of the Cross when awakening or going to sleep doesn't even appear.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

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