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LCMS Election

Started by peter_speckhard, June 10, 2019, 07:31:03 PM

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John_Hannah

I will observe that the prediction of the American Lutheran Publicity Bureau (ALPB) was that Harrison would be re-elected. We are not always correct but usually we are.   :)   

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Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Benke

Quote from: Mark Schulz on June 26, 2019, 05:09:09 PM
I'll add one last post... and then jump back into semi-regular lurker mode.

My sense over my last 25 years as a pastor, and 12 as a commissioned teacher before that, is that the Barry and Kieschnick administrations recognized the divides in our synod and made at least a token (and in some cases very real) attempt at fairness and inclusion for all. But that changed in 2010.

That said, others here disagree with me and believe they were just as disenfranchised as I am now. Perhaps my perspective was warped. Maybe you are right. If so - that was just as tragic.

But "your guy did it to us so don't be surprised when our guy does it to you" doesn't seem like a great way to do church. Ephesians 4:16 says, "He makes the whole body fit together and unites it through the support of every joint. As each and every part does its job, he makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love." Maybe the reason our denomination is not growing right now is that we are not letting each and every part participate?

This is a semi-accurate read, Mark.  Both Barry and Kieschnick could work with a more diverse set of leaders.  However, the overall church-political divide was evenly-ish split then, so that the delegates at the convention were split and ended up voting in a semi-rational way on most issues.  In terms of elections, the split was somewhere in the 50s on a percentage basis.  At this time the split has become more in the 80s, meaning the United List is dominating the elections.  That's really not healthy, because all but a tiny percentage of their selectees are of the ultra-confessional flavor.  However, in terms of presidential leadership, the deeper truth would be found in appointments than in elections.  While no leader would want to appoint people he cannot work with, the appointment screen should veer toward the middle, and not the edges.  And that might be said in some regard of both Al and Jerry. 

So for example if the entire faculty at RF asks the Board of Regents to get a new list of candidates for President, and they ignore that letter - which happened this spring - you have a board operating unhinged from those who work vocationally at that place.  That's a United List problem, in my opinion.  Asking that anonymous group to exercise more churchmanship may be a futile thought, but if there were an address to which to send that request, I'd do it, for the sake of the Church.

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Charles Henrickson on June 26, 2019, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: Mark Schulz on June 26, 2019, 07:22:39 PM
I would expect all pastors to be theologians well versed in the scriptures and with a deep understanding of the confessions.

One should be able to expect that, yes. . . .


Because someone has passed a Red Cross First Aid course gives him knowledge of the human body, but doesn't make him an MD.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

peter_speckhard

Whence does the United List derive its power over the voters? Why does everyone vote for them if it is such a manifestly irrational thing to do? And is there anything preventing people from collaborating and harmonizing with the people UL forces down the voters' throats?

Dave Benke

Quote from: peter_speckhard on June 26, 2019, 08:24:51 PM
Whence does the United List derive its power over the voters? Why does everyone vote for them if it is such a manifestly irrational thing to do? And is there anything preventing people from collaborating and harmonizing with the people UL forces down the voters' throats?

This is a deflection, Peter.  The results show an 80-90% United List supermajority of elections.   What's up with the Concordia Chicago (RF) board?  And why would the chair of the St. Louis Sem board, a guy I know to be a confessional conservative, resign from that board in frustration?  I don't know or hear much, but what I hear is that the United List super-majority way of electing is producing significant intra-board and institutional problems. 

What a guy like you should be doing is asking them to tell us who they are, not fogging the air.

Dave Benke

It's OK to Pray

Jim Butler

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 26, 2019, 08:17:28 PM
Quote from: Charles Henrickson on June 26, 2019, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: Mark Schulz on June 26, 2019, 07:22:39 PM
I would expect all pastors to be theologians well versed in the scriptures and with a deep understanding of the confessions.

One should be able to expect that, yes. . . .


Because someone has passed a Red Cross First Aid course gives him knowledge of the human body, but doesn't make him an MD.

Are you comparing an M.Div. to a Red Cross First Aid course? Well, maybe that's true of the ELCA...
"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

peter_speckhard

Quote from: Dave Benke on June 26, 2019, 08:50:17 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on June 26, 2019, 08:24:51 PM
Whence does the United List derive its power over the voters? Why does everyone vote for them if it is such a manifestly irrational thing to do? And is there anything preventing people from collaborating and harmonizing with the people UL forces down the voters' throats?

This is a deflection, Peter.  The results show an 80-90% United List supermajority of elections.   What's up with the Concordia Chicago (RF) board?  And why would the chair of the St. Louis Sem board, a guy I know to be a confessional conservative, resign from that board in frustration?  I don't know or hear much, but what I hear is that the United List super-majority way of electing is producing significant intra-board and institutional problems. 

What a guy like you should be doing is asking them to tell us who they are, not fogging the air.

Dave Benke
It isn't a deflection at all. What if the voters like the UL candidates and that's why they vote for them? I don't know anyone who puts together any lists. My point is that the voters are voting for the candidates they think are best, and you're acting like the existence of a list is winning elections for the people on that list. Why bother with votes if the voters can't be trusted because they're controlled by a secretly produced list?

Kevin Vogts

Quote from: jebutler on June 26, 2019, 08:58:16 PM
Well, maybe that's true of the ELCA...

And most denominations, for example: "A student must demonstrate that he or she has attained a reading knowledge at an intermediate level in one language of theological scholarship.  Languages normally acceptable for fulfilling this requirement are Greek, Hebrew, Latin, French, German, or Spanish." (Harvard Divinity School Academic Catalog)

In other words, you can now get an M.Div. from Harvard Divinity School without knowing a jot or tittle of Greek or Hebrew.
Rev. Kevin Vogts, Pastor
Trinity Lutheran Church
Paola, Kansas
www.trinitylcms.org

Steven W Bohler

Quote from: Dave Benke on June 26, 2019, 08:50:17 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on June 26, 2019, 08:24:51 PM
Whence does the United List derive its power over the voters? Why does everyone vote for them if it is such a manifestly irrational thing to do? And is there anything preventing people from collaborating and harmonizing with the people UL forces down the voters' throats?

This is a deflection, Peter.  The results show an 80-90% United List supermajority of elections.   What's up with the Concordia Chicago (RF) board?  And why would the chair of the St. Louis Sem board, a guy I know to be a confessional conservative, resign from that board in frustration?  I don't know or hear much, but what I hear is that the United List super-majority way of electing is producing significant intra-board and institutional problems. 

What a guy like you should be doing is asking them to tell us who they are, not fogging the air.

Dave Benke

And as I have pointed out to you in the past, Dr. Benke, there were conventions when the Kieschnick crowd swept everything -- by an even greater percentage than any of the United List victories.  So, was that bad for the synod too?  Or is it only when the confessional wing wins the votes?

Kevin Vogts

#354
Quote from: Dave Benke on June 26, 2019, 08:50:17 PM
why would the chair of the St. Louis Sem board . . . resign from that board in frustration

"who resigned from the board . . . citing commitments to his family and congregation"
[www.csl.edu/2018/11/new-board-of-regents-chairman-member-named/]

"In Kumm's letter to Meyer and the Board of Regents, he wrote: 'Recently I have been pressed to weigh three important areas of responsibility in my life: my vocation as husband and father to my family; the call I have from my congregation in Cody, Wyoming, to serve as her pastor; and my service to the Board of Regents of Concordia Seminary. I have considered many options to try to adequately attend to all three areas at the same time with some semblance of success, but I keep reaching the same conclusion that all three would suffer in some serious way. Though I do not do so lightly, nor do I do so quickly, I resign from the Board of Regents of Concordia Seminary . . .  I realize there are those who may ask what the "real reasons" are behind my resignation. I have stated the reasons above. My love for and vocation to my family, and the call to my congregation are the real reasons. I would ask that people who make inquiries honor those stated reasons as being more than adequate in the kingdom of God.'"
[www.csl.edu/2018/09/regents-chairman-resigns/]
Rev. Kevin Vogts, Pastor
Trinity Lutheran Church
Paola, Kansas
www.trinitylcms.org

Dave Benke

Quote from: peter_speckhard on June 26, 2019, 09:09:28 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on June 26, 2019, 08:50:17 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on June 26, 2019, 08:24:51 PM
Whence does the United List derive its power over the voters? Why does everyone vote for them if it is such a manifestly irrational thing to do? And is there anything preventing people from collaborating and harmonizing with the people UL forces down the voters' throats?

This is a deflection, Peter.  The results show an 80-90% United List supermajority of elections.   What's up with the Concordia Chicago (RF) board?  And why would the chair of the St. Louis Sem board, a guy I know to be a confessional conservative, resign from that board in frustration?  I don't know or hear much, but what I hear is that the United List super-majority way of electing is producing significant intra-board and institutional problems. 

What a guy like you should be doing is asking them to tell us who they are, not fogging the air.

Dave Benke
It isn't a deflection at all. What if the voters like the UL candidates and that's why they vote for them? I don't know anyone who puts together any lists. My point is that the voters are voting for the candidates they think are best, and you're acting like the existence of a list is winning elections for the people on that list. Why bother with votes if the voters can't be trusted because they're controlled by a secretly produced list?

Backing up a bit, the number is 50.1%.  In elections/selections that's the margin for victory.  In the LCMS the margins have been pretty tight church-politically until recently.  Now they're more toward 55%ish.  And I think the bottom line reasons for that are
congregations are trying to survive, and church politics is not important to them

denominations don't matter that much not only to the non-denoms as they grow, but inside the denominations to many congregational leaders, so they're disinclined to be involved

getting delegate slots even filled in some parts of the synod is not all that easy

what J. Tino mentioned about a bunch of congregations all getting no hearing on the change they want to make in a mission policy gets back to the grassroots and the reaction is to support missions in another way or another direction, and further to disconnect from the church-political end

it's viewed as not worth the time and energy

In reality, those who want to be involved in denominational church politics are the few and far between.  I got stuck with it for a long, long time, but I was definitely one of those guys who came to the opening service of the district convention, stayed for the wine and cheese, and cut out early the next day to do a wedding or something local.  If somebody told me I was needed for a task, I'd do it, and I served on the board of directors and as the head of missions and education, but stayed in my lane and let the politics play out somewhere else.   Until 1991.  Then I had to take the plastic off the cover of the copy of the handbook back there in Brooklyn, which was about ten years old, and look inside.  Bummer.  I think that's not an unusual pastoral set of choices.
In speaking with the newer guys who came on or those who have followed my era, something clicks in after the first term and they start speaking Handbook-ese.  Casualties of war. 

It's even the same with service on boards and commissions - there must a burning passion in some folks to want to do that.  Again, I think they're the few and far between.

Dave Benke

It's OK to Pray

Richard Johnson

Quote from: jebutler on June 26, 2019, 08:58:16 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 26, 2019, 08:17:28 PM
Quote from: Charles Henrickson on June 26, 2019, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: Mark Schulz on June 26, 2019, 07:22:39 PM
I would expect all pastors to be theologians well versed in the scriptures and with a deep understanding of the confessions.

One should be able to expect that, yes. . . .


Because someone has passed a Red Cross First Aid course gives him knowledge of the human body, but doesn't make him an MD.

Are you comparing an M.Div. to a Red Cross First Aid course? Well, maybe that's true of the ELCA...

Some days I think that might be a generous comparison . . .  :(
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles Henrickson

Quote from: Mark Schulz on June 26, 2019, 07:22:39 PM
I would expect all pastors to be theologians well versed in the scriptures and with a deep understanding of the confessions.

One should be able to expect that, yes, but I recall a previous LCMS president who declared, "I'm no theologian."  And I believe he was correct!
Charles Henrickson
Pastor, St. Matthew Lutheran Church (LCMS), Bonne Terre, Missouri: stmatthewbt.org

Charles Henrickson

Quote from: Dave Benke on June 26, 2019, 08:11:59 PM
In terms of elections, the split was somewhere in the 50s on a percentage basis.  At this time the split has become more in the 80s, meaning the United List is dominating the elections.

I recall at the 2007 convention, when the Kieschnick-COP Machine was in power, the Jesus First list pretty much ran the table on elections.

It really comes down to who gets their people elected as delegates to the convention.
Charles Henrickson
Pastor, St. Matthew Lutheran Church (LCMS), Bonne Terre, Missouri: stmatthewbt.org

Charles Henrickson

Quote from: Dave Benke on June 26, 2019, 08:11:59 PM
So for example if the entire faculty at RF asks the Board of Regents to get a new list of candidates for President, and they ignore that letter - which happened this spring - you have a board operating unhinged from those who work vocationally at that place.  That's a United List problem, in my opinion.

The entire faculty did not ask that.  It was not the entire faculty.  It was a subset thereof, most of whom were not even LCMS members.
Charles Henrickson
Pastor, St. Matthew Lutheran Church (LCMS), Bonne Terre, Missouri: stmatthewbt.org

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