St. Joseph sued by transgender ELCA clergy spouse

Started by B Hughes, July 23, 2020, 10:17:37 AM

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Matt Hummel

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 23, 2020, 10:45:46 PM
Fr. Hummel:
You wondered what point a Catholic Hospital made, I simply answered. If the issue is one of "having left," may I suggest you then shut up about the Catholic Church, since you, or at least your progenitors, left 500 years ago?
Me:
Actually, I have been unusually complimentary about the Roman part of the Church. My second seminary degree is from a Roman Catholic seminary, Beloved Spouse earned her master's degree at a Dominican University and I have been one of the biggest cheerleaders for the remarkably successful LUtheran-Roman Catholic dialogues. I even said nice things about Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI when people started trashing him, because I found my three conversational lunches with him quite pleasant and concluded that a man who plays classical piano and likes cats can't be all that bad.

Fr. Hummel:
It is my sympathy for those who struggle with mental illness that is keeping me calm at the moment. I find the fact that my former denomination lends credence to this type of argument reprehensible and disgusting.
Me:
You don't sound "calm" to me. And you have found many things about the church body you served "reprehensible and disgusting." We know that. You don't need to keep reminding us

Fr. Hummel:
The ELCA won't pay for adoptions, since that's not medicine. But they will undoubtedly pay for this butchery. The fact that you are more concerned about people not using their nice words when speaking of the ELCA  than you are about this type of insanity says so much.
Me:
"Says so much" to you, maybe. Here's the simple deal. You left the ELCA. You found a lot of reasons to do so. That's fine with me and - as I have said to almost all those who have left us - blessings to you as your faith and ministry leads elsewhere. But - and it's a bigger but than the south end of a northbound hippo - why do you feel the need to look back in anger, to throw the "aren't-they-terrible?" bombs and queasel out incidents that give you a chance for more angry looks and bomb-throwing? Does it help? Is it healthy for you?
Move on. Don't waste your energy on us; if you thought we were redeemable, you may not have left.

The door swings both ways. Why do you expend such energy dismissing the words of one crank?

What I find interesting is that prior to my leaving the ELCA, your responses to my comments about it were all to the effect of, "Don't like it? Then shut up and leave." And since 2009, your messages boil down to, "You left the ELCA. So shut up."

Which means your consistent message for about 15 years hess been "Shut up." Yet I am the rude one.

Swell you like B16. So you served on committees.

If you are going to pretend to pastoral care and sensitivity, at least do a reasonable simulacrum. Your blowing off my reason for why this in particular resonates, for instance.

Perhaps I was wrong. I had mentioned a certain song from a musical that comes to mind. Maybe it is a novel to which we should turn. I am guilty of crimethink since I don't have the bellyfeel for the ELCA. I, like Emmanuel Goldstein must be made an unperson.



Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

DeHall1

Isn't this covered in the Small Catechism in the Lord's Prayer 5th Petition?   You'd think this person's Pastor would have had this discussion with them at some point...

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 24, 2020, 09:46:42 AM
Fr. Hummel:
The door swings both ways. Why do you expend such energy dismissing the words of one crank?
Me:
I think it is time for me to try to do that.

Fr. Hummel:
What I find interesting is that prior to my leaving the ELCA, your responses to my comments about it were all to the effect of, "Don't like it? Then shut up and leave." And since 2009, your messages boil down to, "You left the ELCA. So shut up."
Me:
No. I said if you don't like it, work to change it. If you're not willing to work to change it, then you don't really believe it. If you don't really believe it, then maybe you want to shut up about it. And if your work to change it fails, and you leave, then why do you care?
So, when an ELCA clergy couple sues a Catholic institution, Catholic being Fr. Hummel's current church affiliation, it is no business of Fr. Hummel and he should ignore it? After all, what concern of it of his what members of the ELCA do to his church?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Julio

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 24, 2020, 11:13:45 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Fr. Hummel can say whatever he wants, but everything one can say is not helpful.
But go ahead. Take the last word.
Has anyone been able to locate Pastor Fienen's post that contains the quote Padre Austin has quoted above.  The context of Pastor Fienen's above statement would be helpful ... if indeed the above are Pr Fienen's words.


B Hughes

Quote from: DeHall1 on July 24, 2020, 09:48:24 AM
Isn't this covered in the Small Catechism in the Lord's Prayer 5th Petition?   You'd think this person's Pastor would have had this discussion with them at some point...

You raise an interesting question. Who is my spouse's pastor?  Who is the women's pastor? Is it Lura Greon, her spouse, or someone else?   Depending on how we answer, the person may or may not have a pastor.

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Julio on July 24, 2020, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 24, 2020, 11:13:45 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Fr. Hummel can say whatever he wants, but everything one can say is not helpful.
But go ahead. Take the last word.
Has anyone been able to locate Pastor Fienen's post that contains the quote Padre Austin has quoted above.  The context of Pastor Fienen's above statement would be helpful ... if indeed the above are Pr Fienen's words.
Julio, this time I don't think that Charles intended to quote me but to slam my defense of Matt's standing to be critical of the lawsuit by the ELCA clergy couple. Naturally, his disparagement of Matt is a helpful corrective to Matt's (in his eyes) most unhelpful comment. It is part of Charles's mission here to offer advice and corrective to all of the other churches represented here, heaven knows we all need it. That mission is exclusive to him.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Matt Hummel

Quote from: B Hughes on July 24, 2020, 11:49:38 AM
Quote from: DeHall1 on July 24, 2020, 09:48:24 AM
Isn't this covered in the Small Catechism in the Lord's Prayer 5th Petition?   You'd think this person's Pastor would have had this discussion with them at some point...

You raise an interesting question. Who is my spouse's pastor?  Who is the women's pastor? Is it Lura Greon, her spouse, or someone else?   Depending on how we answer, the person may or may not have a pastor.

It should not be you. That was one of the issues we covered in formation. As a husband and father, I am not to hear the confessions of my wife, or my children unless there is some type of in extremis emergency. Interestingly enough, it is similar reasoning with confession "up the chain of command." I would not go to the pastor of the parish to which I have been assigned as parochial vicar, nor to my Vicar General or Bishop.

A pastor to this pastor and spouse might have  helped them to avoid the vindictive behavior. I know that s/he in the ELCA as it is, could not and would not talk them out of self-mutilation. But someone to help them to see you don't have to destroy an institution while you destroy your body would be good.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Julio

Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 24, 2020, 12:21:17 PM
Quote from: Julio on July 24, 2020, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 24, 2020, 11:13:45 AM
Pastor Fienen:
Fr. Hummel can say whatever he wants, but everything one can say is not helpful.
But go ahead. Take the last word.
Has anyone been able to locate Pastor Fienen's post that contains the quote Padre Austin has quoted above.  The context of Pastor Fienen's above statement would be helpful ... if indeed the above are Pr Fienen's words.
Julio, this time I don't think that Charles intended to quote me but to slam my defense of Matt's standing to be critical of the lawsuit by the ELCA clergy couple. Naturally, his disparagement of Matt is a helpful corrective to Matt's (in his eyes) most unhelpful comment. It is part of Charles's mission here to offer advice and corrective to all of the other churches represented here, heaven knows we all need it. That mission is exclusive to him.
Thank you ... his backwoods methodology of deliberately not utilizing the forum's quotation function contributes to the confusion currently experienced.

Since he has recently been caught misidentifying the author of material he attempts to quote, your clarification is greatly appreciated.

Matt Hummel

Quote from: Charles Austin on July 24, 2020, 09:46:42 AM
Fr. Hummel:
The door swings both ways. Why do you expend such energy dismissing the words of one crank?
Me:
I think it is time for me to try to do that.

Fr. Hummel:
What I find interesting is that prior to my leaving the ELCA, your responses to my comments about it were all to the effect of, "Don't like it? Then shut up and leave." And since 2009, your messages boil down to, "You left the ELCA. So shut up."
Me:
No. I said if you don't like it, work to change it. If you're not willing to work to change it, then you don't really believe it. If you don't really believe it, then maybe you want to shut up about it. And if your work to change it fails, and you leave, then why do you care?

Lie to yourself if you must, but please don't lie to me.

Why does any Christian care when confronted with sinful, destructive,  behavior?

Tell us- is this a good thing? Is the brave new world of ELCA sexual theology and its apparent power to dismantle a way of doing medicine that had been worked out by everyone before hand a positive? Please explain why.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

B Hughes

Quote from: Matt Hummel on July 24, 2020, 12:33:49 PM

A pastor to this pastor and spouse might have helped them to avoid the vindictive behavior.

That's the part that troubles me. That I don't understand transgender surgeries makes me hopelessly too old, white and male such that I have nothing to add to the conversation.  Well, at least that's what a Luther Sem prof told me a couple of years ago whilst I was pondering my journey post early retirement, but that's another conversation.  Anyway ...

It's not just the vindictive behavior, but "feels" like something else, like a childish narcissism that needs to punish "daddy" because he said no - with an emphasis on "daddy."  St. Joseph represents the summit of patriarchy to a queer pastor and her spouse, everything from the ecclesiology to the name of the institution. But that's me skating ever so gently across the 8th commandment line so I'll skate back across that boundary and simply say: a pastor and her spouse should find a better missional use of their time.








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