John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest

Started by Norman Teigen, September 01, 2018, 09:34:26 AM

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mariemeyer

Back to John McCain:  What the cathedral service said about America, Christian funerals and John McCain the politician is open for discussion.

I would submit the funeral did say something about family. The men who spoke, including Lieberman, Bush and Obama, like John McCain, were men for whom family was a valued focus of their life. Adding to their family through adoption demonstrated the degree to which John and Cindy McCain valued children including children of color.

As in all areas of life John McCain was a flawed father and husband. At the same time ceremonies at the time of his death reflected the significance of fathers and husbands in the lives of their wives, sons and daughters.   

Marie Meyer 

DeHall1

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on September 04, 2018, 09:14:28 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 03:23:49 AM
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.
I think Charles has put on the tinfoil hat that lets him say "I hate Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if he'd waited more than 4 hours and 23 minutes (minus the time it took him to read and minus the time it took him to type) before he put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe (or google) and his own brain might have given him something substantial to say.  Or maybe not.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on September 04, 2018, 09:14:28 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 03:23:49 AM
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.

Thank you, Steven.

Junior High civics, Charles. Perhaps some incorrect talking point that you read?   ::)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Rob Morris

I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?

John_Hannah

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on September 04, 2018, 09:14:28 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 03:23:49 AM
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.

True enough, Steven. But the Department of Justice is different than say Defense or State or any other Cabinet level department in that it is required to remain neutral and non-political in matters of justice (i.e., investigations and prosecutions).

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Mark Brown

Quote from: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?

What it largely says is that we just witnessed a week long propaganda effort by, for lack of a better term, the establishment.  Spengler gets is largely right.  http://www.atimes.com/article/a-funeral-for-a-world-that-never-was/

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?


The list from Wiki.

Lain in State
1852 – Henry Clay, long-serving Senator and Representative, Secretary of State, Speaker of the House, and three-time presidential candidate
1865 – President Abraham Lincoln, assassinated in office
1868 – Thaddeus Stevens, Representative from Pennsylvania
1874 – Charles Sumner, Senator from Massachusetts
1875 – Vice President Henry Wilson, served under Grant, died in office
1881 – President James Garfield, assassinated in office
1886 – John A. Logan, Senator from Illinois
1901 – President William McKinley, assassinated while in office
1909 – Pierre L'Enfant – although he died in 1825, his remains were disinterred; he was honored by lying in state before reinterment at Arlington National Cemetery
1917 – Admiral George Dewey, Admiral of the Navy
1921 – The Unknown Soldier for World War I
1923 – President Warren Harding, died in office
1930 – President William Howard Taft, President 1909–13, also Chief Justice 1921–30
1948 – John J. Pershing, General of the Armies of the United States during World War I and after
1953 – Robert A. Taft, U.S. Senator and Majority Leader
1958 – The Unknown Soldiers for World War II and the Korean War
1963 – President John F. Kennedy, assassinated in office
1964 – General Douglas MacArthur, General of the Army
1964 – President Herbert Hoover, serving 1929–33
1969 – President Dwight Eisenhower, President 1953–1961, Supreme Allied Commander during World War II
1969 – Everett Dirksen, Illinois Senator, Senate Minority Leader 1959–1969
1972 – J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 1929–1972
1973 – President Lyndon B. Johnson, President 1963–1969
1978 – Hubert Humphrey, Vice President 1965–1969, Minnesota Senator, 1968 Democratic nominee for President of the United States
1984 – The Unknown Soldier for the Vietnam War (later identified as 1st. Lt. Michael J. Blassie)
1989 – Claude Pepper, long-serving Senator and Representative from Florida
2004 – President Ronald Reagan, President 1981–1989
2006 – President Gerald Ford, President 1974–1977
2012 – Daniel Inouye, President pro tempore of the U.S. Senate, Senator from Hawaii, and recipient of the Medal of Honor
2018 – John McCain, 2008 Republican nominee for President of the United States, Senator from Arizona, and recipient of the Silver Star.

Lain in honor
1998 – United States Capitol Police Officer Jacob Chestnut and Detective John Gibson, killed on duty
2005 – Rosa Parks, civil rights activist
2018 – Billy Graham, Christian evangelist

Lain in repose
Supreme Court Justices "lie in repose" in the Great Hall of the United States Supreme Court Building.
1974 – Chief Justice Earl Warren
1993 – Justice Thurgood Marshall
1995 – Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
1997 – Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.
1999 – Justice Harry A. Blackmun
2005 – Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the first so-honored to have died in office.
2016 – Justice Antonin Scalia, died in office.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Charles Austin

Thank you for the corrections and the civics lesson, Steven, but John Hannah underlines my point, namely that the Attorney General and his staff are to remain politically neutral, and the President's comments would undercut that.
It is a diversion of attention, I believe, to consider whether Senator McCain was "worthy" or "important enough" to have that kind of memorial. Doesn't matter.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. Often critical of the ELCA, but more often a defender of its mission. Ignoring the not-so-subtle rude insults which often appear here.

Rob Morris

Quote from: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 11:33:42 AM
It is a diversion of attention, I believe, to consider whether Senator McCain was "worthy" or "important enough" to have that kind of memorial. Doesn't matter.

Is there a smacking my palm to my forehead emoji? Consider that inserted here.

Rob Morris

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 04, 2018, 11:27:58 AM
Quote from: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?


The list from Wiki.

Lain in State
1852 – Henry Clay, long-serving Senator and Representative, Secretary of State, Speaker of the House, and three-time presidential candidate
1865 – President Abraham Lincoln, assassinated in office
1868 – Thaddeus Stevens, Representative from Pennsylvania
1874 – Charles Sumner, Senator from Massachusetts
1875 – Vice President Henry Wilson, served under Grant, died in office
1881 – President James Garfield, assassinated in office
1886 – John A. Logan, Senator from Illinois
1901 – President William McKinley, assassinated while in office
1909 – Pierre L'Enfant – although he died in 1825, his remains were disinterred; he was honored by lying in state before reinterment at Arlington National Cemetery
1917 – Admiral George Dewey, Admiral of the Navy
1921 – The Unknown Soldier for World War I
1923 – President Warren Harding, died in office
1930 – President William Howard Taft, President 1909–13, also Chief Justice 1921–30
1948 – John J. Pershing, General of the Armies of the United States during World War I and after
1953 – Robert A. Taft, U.S. Senator and Majority Leader
1958 – The Unknown Soldiers for World War II and the Korean War
1963 – President John F. Kennedy, assassinated in office
1964 – General Douglas MacArthur, General of the Army
1964 – President Herbert Hoover, serving 1929–33
1969 – President Dwight Eisenhower, President 1953–1961, Supreme Allied Commander during World War II
1969 – Everett Dirksen, Illinois Senator, Senate Minority Leader 1959–1969
1972 – J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 1929–1972
1973 – President Lyndon B. Johnson, President 1963–1969
1978 – Hubert Humphrey, Vice President 1965–1969, Minnesota Senator, 1968 Democratic nominee for President of the United States
1984 – The Unknown Soldier for the Vietnam War (later identified as 1st. Lt. Michael J. Blassie)
1989 – Claude Pepper, long-serving Senator and Representative from Florida
2004 – President Ronald Reagan, President 1981–1989
2006 – President Gerald Ford, President 1974–1977
2012 – Daniel Inouye, President pro tempore of the U.S. Senate, Senator from Hawaii, and recipient of the Medal of Honor
2018 – John McCain, 2008 Republican nominee for President of the United States, Senator from Arizona, and recipient of the Silver Star.

Lain in honor
1998 – United States Capitol Police Officer Jacob Chestnut and Detective John Gibson, killed on duty
2005 – Rosa Parks, civil rights activist
2018 – Billy Graham, Christian evangelist

Lain in repose
Supreme Court Justices "lie in repose" in the Great Hall of the United States Supreme Court Building.
1974 – Chief Justice Earl Warren
1993 – Justice Thurgood Marshall
1995 – Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
1997 – Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.
1999 – Justice Harry A. Blackmun
2005 – Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the first so-honored to have died in office.
2016 – Justice Antonin Scalia, died in office.

Thanks for the list, Pastor Stoffregen. Clearly McCain is not the only potential outlier. Seems to me that an interesting study could be done on: to whom was the honor accorded and what might that reveal about the cultural moment at the time? And obviously, the family's wishes (which may or may not be on public record anywhere) would certainly factor in.

Rob Morris

Maybe this only interests me, but running through all the names I would consider "outliers" (Robert Taft, Humphrey, Dirkson, Inouye, Pepper, et al), they do all share a few things: (1) a very long political career and (2) they died while still in office.

Now, certainly many have died while in office who did not receive the honor. But it seems that if someone is currently serving a term, had a long career, and is pretty well-known (which goes hand-in-hand with having a long career), being lain in state becomes much more likely. And perhaps that's all there is to it.

That said, I think Spengler's piece (thanks, Pr. Brown), while a little too myopic, hits at much of what has been occurring to me. McCain in some ways typifies much mythology about US governance, much mythology that is very quickly being deconstructed. I think there's a lot more to it than just "Let's stick it to Trump." It seems like a lot of people saying: "McCain's the kind of guy we want." Which seems ironic, considering how many voted against him.

Anywho... enough from me.

MaddogLutheran

#71
Quote from: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 11:51:14 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 04, 2018, 11:27:58 AM
Quote from: Rob Morris on September 04, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
I suspect that this may get lost in the current flameout, but it's what has been nagging at me through all the funeral/theater:

According to the articles that I have read, McCain is only the 31st person to be honored by lying in state in the Capital Rotunda. This prompts two questions in me:

1) Do you feel that, if you were to list the 31 most important political figures in American history, John McCain would make that list?

2) If not (and I definitely do not - I don't intend that as a slam, it's just a really tall order to crack the top 31), what do you think it says that John McCain received this honor?


The list from Wiki.

Lain in State
1852 – Henry Clay, long-serving Senator and Representative, Secretary of State, Speaker of the House, and three-time presidential candidate
1865 – President Abraham Lincoln, assassinated in office
1868 – Thaddeus Stevens, Representative from Pennsylvania
1874 – Charles Sumner, Senator from Massachusetts
1875 – Vice President Henry Wilson, served under Grant, died in office
1881 – President James Garfield, assassinated in office
1886 – John A. Logan, Senator from Illinois
1901 – President William McKinley, assassinated while in office
1909 – Pierre L'Enfant – although he died in 1825, his remains were disinterred; he was honored by lying in state before reinterment at Arlington National Cemetery
1917 – Admiral George Dewey, Admiral of the Navy
1921 – The Unknown Soldier for World War I
1923 – President Warren Harding, died in office
1930 – President William Howard Taft, President 1909–13, also Chief Justice 1921–30
1948 – John J. Pershing, General of the Armies of the United States during World War I and after
1953 – Robert A. Taft, U.S. Senator and Majority Leader
1958 – The Unknown Soldiers for World War II and the Korean War
1963 – President John F. Kennedy, assassinated in office
1964 – General Douglas MacArthur, General of the Army
1964 – President Herbert Hoover, serving 1929–33
1969 – President Dwight Eisenhower, President 1953–1961, Supreme Allied Commander during World War II
1969 – Everett Dirksen, Illinois Senator, Senate Minority Leader 1959–1969
1972 – J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 1929–1972
1973 – President Lyndon B. Johnson, President 1963–1969
1978 – Hubert Humphrey, Vice President 1965–1969, Minnesota Senator, 1968 Democratic nominee for President of the United States
1984 – The Unknown Soldier for the Vietnam War (later identified as 1st. Lt. Michael J. Blassie)
1989 – Claude Pepper, long-serving Senator and Representative from Florida
2004 – President Ronald Reagan, President 1981–1989
2006 – President Gerald Ford, President 1974–1977
2012 – Daniel Inouye, President pro tempore of the U.S. Senate, Senator from Hawaii, and recipient of the Medal of Honor
2018 – John McCain, 2008 Republican nominee for President of the United States, Senator from Arizona, and recipient of the Silver Star.

Lain in honor
1998 – United States Capitol Police Officer Jacob Chestnut and Detective John Gibson, killed on duty
2005 – Rosa Parks, civil rights activist
2018 – Billy Graham, Christian evangelist

Lain in repose
Supreme Court Justices "lie in repose" in the Great Hall of the United States Supreme Court Building.
1974 – Chief Justice Earl Warren
1993 – Justice Thurgood Marshall
1995 – Chief Justice Warren E. Burger
1997 – Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.
1999 – Justice Harry A. Blackmun
2005 – Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, the first so-honored to have died in office.
2016 – Justice Antonin Scalia, died in office.

Thanks for the list, Pastor Stoffregen. Clearly McCain is not the only potential outlier. Seems to me that an interesting study could be done on: to whom was the honor accorded and what might that reveal about the cultural moment at the time? And obviously, the family's wishes (which may or may not be on public record anywhere) would certainly factor in.

What that list doesn't tell us is the population of U.S. senators who died while still in office..  The last two, reasonably prominent, were Paul Wellstone (already mentioned here) and Ted Kennedy.  The former had not served long enough to deserve such an honor, while the latter had but also is associated with an unfortunate incident with a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island which may have had something to do with not receiving the honor.

Other senators to die in office of which I'm familiar are a couple of mine, John Heinz and Arlen Specter (plane crash and cancer respectively).  Neither of whose service to the country matched McCain.  Despite Trump mocking, I think being held as  POW for 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton earns a man some respect.  Even as I recognize the politicking at his funeral was approaching the Wellstone fever pitch, and I recognize that he might not have gotten such bipartisan kudos (from Democrats) if he had not been so notoriously anti-Trump.  Some people are useful idiots even in death.

Sterling Spatz
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Donald_Kirchner

#72
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 11:33:42 AM
Thank you for the corrections and the civics lesson, Steven, but John Hannah underlines my point, namely that the Attorney General and his staff are to remain politically neutral...

Indeed, like Robert Kennedy, Eric Holder, and Loretta Lynch.   ::)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

MaddogLutheran

Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 04, 2018, 12:36:32 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 04, 2018, 11:33:42 AM
Thank you for the corrections and the civics lesson, Steven, but John Hannah underlines my point, namely that the Attorney General and his staff are to remain politically neutral...

Indeed, like Robert Kennedy, Eric Holder, and Loretta Lynch.   ::)
Very much indeed.  Obama's Justice Department refusing to defend the Bill Clinton's signed Defense of Marriage Act in court was courageous statesmanship.  Trump's Justice Department refusing to defend the Affordable Care Act against a lawsuit by state attorneys' general is an act of rank partisanship. 

I say this not to celebrate or excuse the Justice Dept. ACA inaction, but only highlight again that partisanship accusations are selective.  Personally I find it disgusting that some of the same public people lauding the late senator said some vile, awful things about him in 2008 (looking at you, Chuck Schumer).  When this happen often enough, the pattern is more than a coincidence.  None of this excuses Trump's petty behavior, but merely provides context.  I do believe that McCain acted consistently on his principles, if one bothers to look at what they were.  They just don't easily line up with what is considered acceptable to either the Resistance Left or Trumpkin Right today.

Sterling Spatz
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Harvey_Mozolak

It was nicer when I did not know all your political views, fellow Forum-ites.  I might have guessed but could have been wrong.  I liked it that most in my parishes did not know where I stood at least in the range of blue to red.  And I knew that because they made wrong assumptions often as I listened patiently to things I wished I did not have to hear.  I have many pastoral weaknesses but I have some hope that it was a small strength when I was true to political neutrality.  Is this too free a place for at least this stuff?  Are we just ventilating... I hope.
Harvey S. Mozolak
my poetry blog is listed below:

http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

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