In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven

Started by Michael Slusser, December 05, 2017, 03:45:31 PM

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David Garner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 05:08:10 PM
Quote from: David Garner on December 23, 2017, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 02:17:51 PM
Quote from: MaddogLutheran on December 23, 2017, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 11:34:59 AM
Quote from: James S. Rustad on December 23, 2017, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on December 23, 2017, 11:04:29 AM
Well, Mr.Garner, do we now have to know where someone stands on gun control (or any other civil issue) before we can sing a hymn that they have written?

Well, when it is a hymn advocating gun control, you already know.

The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?
That's not all it advocates.   Since you can't tell us how those "smarter people" would change laws to bring about the hymn's call for an end to violence because of guns, you can't speak authoritatively about any of this.  Which is the problem.  You're giving a blank check to right-thinking people in government.


No where does the song talk about "violence because of guns." It talks about violent weapons. Certainly that could include guns, but also many other weapons of violence. The biblical text for that day used stones to kill people. It seems to me that what the lyrics address is a violent attitude.

So when it says we should have legislation to curb guns' awful toll, that means guns exact a non-violent, yet still awful, toll?

This is such a very odd route you're taking to try and deny the obvious.


Absolutely, suicide is an awful toll, but it's not done out of violence. Accidental shootings are awful tolls, but not violent.

You don't know what "violent" means.

Either that or this is just more dishonesty.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: David Garner on December 23, 2017, 05:18:59 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 05:08:10 PM
Quote from: David Garner on December 23, 2017, 04:39:17 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 02:17:51 PM
Quote from: MaddogLutheran on December 23, 2017, 12:11:40 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 11:34:59 AM
Quote from: James S. Rustad on December 23, 2017, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: Charles Austin on December 23, 2017, 11:04:29 AM
Well, Mr.Garner, do we now have to know where someone stands on gun control (or any other civil issue) before we can sing a hymn that they have written?

Well, when it is a hymn advocating gun control, you already know.

The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?
That's not all it advocates.   Since you can't tell us how those "smarter people" would change laws to bring about the hymn's call for an end to violence because of guns, you can't speak authoritatively about any of this.  Which is the problem.  You're giving a blank check to right-thinking people in government.


No where does the song talk about "violence because of guns." It talks about violent weapons. Certainly that could include guns, but also many other weapons of violence. The biblical text for that day used stones to kill people. It seems to me that what the lyrics address is a violent attitude.

So when it says we should have legislation to curb guns' awful toll, that means guns exact a non-violent, yet still awful, toll?

This is such a very odd route you're taking to try and deny the obvious.


Absolutely, suicide is an awful toll, but it's not done out of violence. Accidental shootings are awful tolls, but not violent.

You don't know what "violent" means.

Either that or this is just more dishonesty.


It's an adjective. It describes something else. It is used of something intending to hurt, damage, or kill. An accidental shooting doesn't come because the shooter intended to hurt, damage, or kill.  It is used to describe a destructive emotional state. Someone can have a violent temper and not actually hurt, damage, or kill anything.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Donald_Kirchner

Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

SomeoneWrites

The hymn is about gun control.  It's not ALL about gun control, but it's in there. 
In the same way that a prayer asking Guidance for civil leaders, good health, and comfort for the afflicted, and forgiveness of sins is a prayer about good health.  It's not ALL about good health, but it's in there. 

To say otherwise is
1) intellectually dishonest
2) not using all the exegetical tools at one's disposal. 

Whether a hymn about gun control is a good/bad/helpful/unhelpful thing depends on the theology. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 23, 2017, 05:46:26 PM
The hymn is about gun control.  It's not ALL about gun control, but it's in there.


Just as guns don't need legislation, they don't need to be controlled. It's people who need to be controlled. It's human violence that needs to be controlled. Legislations are nearly always to control people. The Law as Curb. That's quite Lutheran.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 06:19:43 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 23, 2017, 05:46:26 PM
The hymn is about gun control.  It's not ALL about gun control, but it's in there.


Just as guns don't need legislation, they don't need to be controlled. It's people who need to be controlled. It's human violence that needs to be controlled. Legislations are nearly always to control people. The Law as Curb. That's quite Lutheran.

The hymn is speaking about gun control legislation.  To say otherwise is
1) intellectually dishonest
or
2) not using all of one's exegetical tools. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Donald_Kirchner

Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

James S. Rustad

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 11:34:59 AM
The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?

The hymn advocates an end to "gun violence" through legislation.  That phrase is generally used by those advocating gun control, as it is in this case.

There's an old, impolite saying that clearly applies here -- it ends with "...and tell me it's raining."
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -Thomas Jefferson

Matt Hummel

Quote from: James S. Rustad on December 23, 2017, 07:46:12 PM
[quote author=Brian Stoffregen link=topic=6878.msg435018#msg435018 date=151404689
The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?

The hymn advocates an end to "gun violence" through legislation.  That phrase is generally used by those advocating gun control, as it is in this case.

There's an old, impolite saying that clearly applies here -- it ends with "...and tell me it's raining."
[/quote]

"Cease micturating on my dorsal surface while insisting that the local meteorlogical conditions call for precipitation."
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Richard Johnson

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 05:10:14 PM
Quote from: Richard Johnson on December 23, 2017, 04:32:39 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 23, 2017, 02:22:13 PM
Why can't we come together and talk about curbing violence?

Great idea. Not the same as imposing a ridiculous lyric on worshipers during the liturgy.


What did your minister do the week after the mass shootings in Las Vegas? Was there any mention of the violence? Any recognition of the dozens who were killed and hundreds who were injured? What would you have done with a liturgy and sermons the week after one of the deadliest mass shootings in America?


I don't recall, but had I been presiding and preaching, I likely would have seen to it that a petition in the prayers referred to it; it might have been mentioned illustratively in the sermon if it were appropriate to the text.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

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