Draft ELCA Social Statement on Women & Justice Released

Started by RPG, November 22, 2017, 01:52:14 PM

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Matt Hummel

Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Dan Fienen

In re President Trump and Senate Candidate Roy Moore, from my observation, Pres. Trump has always pointed out that Moore has always denied the accusations made against him.  Never has Pres. Trump suggested that he would support Moore if the charges are true or dismissed the actions that he's accused of as acceptable behavior.


Do we really want to set things up so that the accusation of sexual misconduct or harrasement is by itself taken automatically as proof of wrong doing?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

OK Pastor Fienen, I'm on your side (I think). Roy Moore should not hold public office because he is a fool, an example of the worst kind of "conservative" Christianity, a law-breaker and a general jerk. Let's not care whether he is a 30-year old guy hitting on minors.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Dan Fienen

#243
I care if he was a 30 year old creep hitting on minors.  That he has been accused of having been a 30 year old creep hitting on minors does not in itself validate the accusation.  If he did what he was accused of, he was wrong and demonstrated a deep flaw in his character.  It should neither be merely brushed off nor assumed true merely on the basis of the accusation.  The women who have accused him deserve to have their complaints heard, to tell their stories and demonstrate their veracity.  Judge Moore deserves the opportunity to defend himself.


All of which points up the great difficulties these kinds of cases presents.  The incidents are thirty years old.  That in itself is neither evidence for nor against the veracity of the claims.  But it does mean that gathering such evidence is that much more difficult.  It may also remove adjudicating from the court system which would be the natural venue for judgement.  Note: 30 years does not remove the damage such events if they happened caused.  Does raise the question of whether the Judge has changed his ways over time.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

 OK. He should not be in public office because he is a fool and a jerk. And the justice system should be exploring his dating habits. But that's another issue.
Maybe now at his age he only hits on women in their 40s.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

mariemeyer

A few thoughts after a second look at the Draft ELCA Social Statement on Women and Justice:

Essentially I question whether the ELCA or any Christian church body is called to issue a social statement before addressing the particular issue within their church from the perspective of our Christian witness to the nature of the Triune God in relation to mankind.

IOW,  the question for the ELCA and the LCMS is, "How are we living out the Biblical truth that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit relate to man and woman, not according to their sexual distinction as male and female, but according to the Nature of God?"

IMO, the LCMS and the ELCA have gone off in different directions.  For this reason I submit both church bodies, for different reasons, ought step back for a time of critical self study.  Speaking to the LCMS, I urge an evaluation of whether it is time to repent of past and present statements claiming God at creation subordinated woman to man thereby placing man in a position of authority in relation to woman.  Is ours a Biblical witness to nature of our God and Father's relationship to man to woman when we claim the subordination of woman to man in a patriarchal structure, when rightly understood as a spiritual truth, that is not applicable to society. 

I leave the ELCA Social Statement to members of that church body.

Marie Meyer 

Matt Hummel

Unfortunately for us all, retired ELCA clergy do not get to set the intelligence test for politicians.

Moore gets to run, jackass though he is. As does Schumer, Pelosi, Trump, etc. Thus it has always been in our republic. But immorality such as Moore, or Conyers, or Franken, or any of the others, R or D, exhibit, that changes it. No room for, "he may be a creep, but he's our creep."
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: mariemeyer on December 02, 2017, 10:42:37 AM
IOW,  the question for the ELCA and the LCMS is, "How are we living out the Biblical truth that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit relate to man and woman, not according to their sexual distinction as male and female, but according to the Nature of God?"

The Biblical truth is that God relates to mankind according to His nature? Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

aletheist

Quote from: mariemeyer on December 02, 2017, 10:42:37 AMIOW,  the question for the ELCA and the LCMS is, "How are we living out the Biblical truth that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit relate to man and woman, not according to their sexual distinction as male and female, but according to the Nature of God?"
It seems to me that the relevant issue is not how God relates to man and woman, but how man and woman--especially husband and wife--are supposed to relate to one another in accordance with God's design for creation, which includes some differences between them.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

mariemeyer

Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on December 02, 2017, 10:48:30 AM
Quote from: mariemeyer on December 02, 2017, 10:42:37 AM
IOW,  the question for the ELCA and the LCMS is, "How are we living out the Biblical truth that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit relate to man and woman, not according to their sexual distinction as male and female, but according to the Nature of God?"

The Biblical truth is that God relates to mankind according to His nature? Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?

If it's a no-brainer then why does the LCMS (mis)use Scripture to prove God  the Creator established a structured order where man and woman relate to each other according the their supra or sub ordinate position in the structure??????

But this is thread is about the ELCA Social Statement.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: mariemeyer on December 02, 2017, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on December 02, 2017, 10:48:30 AM
Quote from: mariemeyer on December 02, 2017, 10:42:37 AM
IOW,  the question for the ELCA and the LCMS is, "How are we living out the Biblical truth that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit relate to man and woman, not according to their sexual distinction as male and female, but according to the Nature of God?"

The Biblical truth is that God relates to mankind according to His nature? Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?

If it's a no-brainer then why does the LCMS (mis)use Scripture to prove God  the Creator established a structured order where man and woman relate to each other according the their supra or sub ordinate position in the structure??????

But this is thread is about the ELCA Social Statement.

Indeed, it is. So why ride in on your hobby horse, criticizing the LCMS about your favorite issue?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

Because the ELCA statement, Pastor Kirchner, is about justice for women. Deaconess Meyer's comments are appropriate here. We can learn from her critique of your system.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on December 02, 2017, 01:29:58 PM
Because the ELCA statement, Pastor Kirchner, is about justice for women. Deaconess Meyer's comments are appropriate here. We can learn from her critique of your system.

Uh huh. And when I replied to her on the issue, she responded,

"But this is (sic) thread is about the ELCA Social Statement."
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

#253
As I said, Pastor Kirchner, perhaps we can learn from seeing the way you mishandle the relationship between men and women and God. Deaconess Meyers Should keep posting, I hope you do not drive her off.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on December 02, 2017, 01:45:36 PM
As I said, Pastor Kirchner, perhaps we can learn from seeing the way you mishandle the relationship between men and women and God. Deaconess Meyers Should keep posting, I hope you do not drive her off.

Come now, Charles. That's rather condescending toward Ms. Meyer and women in general.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

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