Draft ELCA Social Statement on Women & Justice Released

Started by RPG, November 22, 2017, 01:52:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Brian Stoffregen

#30
Quote from: gan ainm on November 23, 2017, 11:50:17 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 23, 2017, 11:20:37 AM
Quote from: gan ainm on November 23, 2017, 07:29:00 AM
No, we left long before the snowball was this far down hill from the mountain top.  God chose us to join a Christian congregation that proclaimed and believed Law and Gospel, that is guided by all God's Word rather than by John Lennon and the Beatles "All you need is love".


Could it be that God's Word commands us: "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Love one another as I have loved you"? Jesus seems clear that all we need is love ... for God and for neighbor and for self. All the other commandments hang on these. He said it (quoting the Torah) long before the Beatles ever saing about love.

Absolutely correct that we are to love God and love neighbor.  And, if one truly loves their neighbor they will pray unceasingly that God give the neighbor the gift of repentance and does not remove that gift from the prayer, that is pray for a turn around from sinful behavior to hearing and trusting the complete Word of God.  As Jesus says in Mt 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Do you think Jesus is with us if we do not teach others to observe all that he commanded?


Do you have a list of all the imperatives Jesus spoke? (According to one website there are 1050 New Testament commands. Do you include all of them under what Jesus commanded?)

Do you consider all that Jesus commanded to include the 613 commands of the Torah?


What do you think Jesus meant when he said that "the whole of the law and prophets hang on these two commands" (Mt 22:40). If we obeyed those two, would that cover all the rest?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on November 23, 2017, 03:38:55 PM
While I'm here

1283-1286
"In all cases, their status as undocumented must not be an obstacle to
the safety and well-being all humans need. On the contrary, their status as
sojourners in this society invokes the biblical injunctions for special care and
concern (Leviticus 19:34)"

I'm neither arguing for or against their position on immigration.
What I don't understand is when/how Leviticus may be used as a proof-text/example.


In the same way Jesus used Leviticus as a proof-text/example of the great commandment. Jesus didn't make it up. He quoted Leviticus 19:18; and Deuteronomy 6:5. The Torah remains an expression of God's will for humanity. We can certainly learn from the commands about how God expects us to live together peacefully and justly.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Dan Fienen

"All you need is love."  Very true, Jesus quoting OT texts pointed to love being the fulfillment of the law.  But crucial to that is determining what the loving thing is in each circumstance.  All the rest of the law shows what love looks like.


Probably as many crimes have been committed in the name of love as have in the name of religion.  It used to be a flip one-liner, "Love your neighbor, but don't get caught."  Many people rationalize selfishness or sexual misconduct as "love."


All we need is love, but often we need help deciding what love demands.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 23, 2017, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on November 23, 2017, 03:38:55 PM
While I'm here

1283-1286
"In all cases, their status as undocumented must not be an obstacle to
the safety and well-being all humans need. On the contrary, their status as
sojourners in this society invokes the biblical injunctions for special care and
concern (Leviticus 19:34)"

I'm neither arguing for or against their position on immigration.
What I don't understand is when/how Leviticus may be used as a proof-text/example.


In the same way Jesus used Leviticus as a proof-text/example of the great commandment. Jesus didn't make it up. He quoted Leviticus 19:18; and Deuteronomy 6:5. The Torah remains an expression of God's will for humanity. We can certainly learn from the commands about how God expects us to live together peacefully and justly.

That's not unpacked enough for me.  The LCMS makes some distinctions I can wrap my head around.  Not sure how the ELCA does. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

readselerttoo

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on November 23, 2017, 07:09:30 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 23, 2017, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on November 23, 2017, 03:38:55 PM
While I'm here

1283-1286
"In all cases, their status as undocumented must not be an obstacle to
the safety and well-being all humans need. On the contrary, their status as
sojourners in this society invokes the biblical injunctions for special care and
concern (Leviticus 19:34)"

I'm neither arguing for or against their position on immigration.
What I don't understand is when/how Leviticus may be used as a proof-text/example.


In the same way Jesus used Leviticus as a proof-text/example of the great commandment. Jesus didn't make it up. He quoted Leviticus 19:18; and Deuteronomy 6:5. The Torah remains an expression of God's will for humanity. We can certainly learn from the commands about how God expects us to live together peacefully and justly.

That's not unpacked enough for me.  The LCMS makes some distinctions I can wrap my head around.  Not sure how the ELCA does.

Yes.  Distinctions need to be made.  Love under the law is different from love under the Gospel.  Love your neighbor as you love yourself is self-centered love.  It is not other directed love as a starting point.  That's love under the law.  God wants that love done all the time, unconditionally, completely and thoroughly under His demand for complete and thorough justice.  God will have it no other way.  If it is not happening now individually and/or societally, then God's wrath (see Romans 1) will end all things because His anger is demonstration that it isn't being done.  God's law is a demanding law and it always accuses and is never simply imformative.

Under the Gospel, love is first generated by Christ through His death on the cross for sinners.  Within the fellowship of word and sacrament that love is effective and thorough and generous.  It make no demands and is contrary to love under the law.  Love one another is among Jesus' disciples exclusively.  It is not a political agenda which the ELCA  statement presupposes.  The ELCA statement mingles the law with the Gospel nd vice-versa.  The ELCA statement is utopian and serves liberal political agendas.

readselerttoo

The use of Leviticus and Deuteronomy only reinforces what I wrote above.  It refers to love of neighbor and it is political agenda exclusively.  The ELCA liberal left co-opts the use of the Old Testament to advance its agenda and calls it gospel agenda.  This is what St. Paul dealt with among the Galatian church(es) see Galatians 1 and an other gospel (which there isn't).

As a political/social institution the ELCA needs to be honest with itself and stop mingling the gospel (another gospel) with the law of love.  Or at least be honest enough with itself and clarify that they are trying to find peace and justice under the law as a political agenda which is in contra-distinction to the Christian Gospel which conveys no political issue.

gan ainm

Quote from: Charles Austin on November 23, 2017, 12:28:33 PM
Even though I have not yet read it, anonymous one, I can guarantee that the paper is not what you claim it to be, namely an effort to "create heaven on earth with man in charge."
That is your unfair Assessment, because you do not take the time to understand who we are and how we do things. If you did, you would find plenty to make you mad, but at least you would criticize us for the proper things.
But there's nothing new with that.

I was a member of the ELCA for quite a while.  I think I'm more qualified to say what I understand about the ELCA than you are (assuming you are not a mind reader who is into sorcery) AFWIW, I did read the abomination of the social statement, unlike you who said he has not; your arrogant, condescending, rude, errant guarantee is laughable - but I forgive you.  And, I am not at all mad, just very sad to see what happened to a lot of friends who continue to be led astray.  I do pray for them and you frequently.

Galatians 5:19-21 (ESV)  19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.  I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Happy Thanksgiving.  Lord have mercy.


Charles Austin

ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Matt Hummel

Having read the document, I am reminded of two things:

A) The physicist who, as a prank, published the paper on Gravity as a Social Construct. and
B) The folks who developed a program that would generate pseudo-Social Science nonsense based on madlibs like input from the reader.

I take it that in a similar vein, the ELCA has decided to take a major step forward in evangelization of the Nones through sophisticated and subtle humor. I for one want to congratulate the ELCA on such a bold move. If I didn't know any better, I would  have thought them (self) serious. Well done, ELCA. Well done!
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

DCharlton

#39
Quote from: George Rahn on November 23, 2017, 08:01:36 PM
Yes.  Distinctions need to be made.  Love under the law is different from love under the Gospel.  Love your neighbor as you love yourself is self-centered love.  It is not other directed love as a starting point.  That's love under the law.  God wants that love done all the time, unconditionally, completely and thoroughly under His demand for complete and thorough justice.  God will have it no other way.  If it is not happening now individually and/or societally, then God's wrath (see Romans 1) will end all things because His anger is demonstration that it isn't being done.  God's law is a demanding law and it always accuses and is never simply imformative.

Under the Gospel, love is first generated by Christ through His death on the cross for sinners.  Within the fellowship of word and sacrament that love is effective and thorough and generous.  It make no demands and is contrary to love under the law.  Love one another is among Jesus' disciples exclusively.  It is not a political agenda which the ELCA  statement presupposes.  The ELCA statement mingles the law with the Gospel nd vice-versa.  The ELCA statement is utopian and serves liberal political agendas.

I have a few questions about the preaching of the Law in regard to ELCA social statements:

1.  Do our social statements assist the Church in the preaching of the Law?  If so, how?
2.  If it is not necessary for us to agree on the content of the Law, what is the purpose of social statements?
3.  If it is necessary for us to agree on the content of the Law, who or what decides?  What role to the Scriptures play?
4.  Do our social statements necessitate Christ?  Is that their intent?
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on November 23, 2017, 07:09:30 PM

That's not unpacked enough for me.  The LCMS makes some distinctions I can wrap my head around.  Not sure how the ELCA does.

Don't worry, SW.  As an ELCA pastor who has read several of our social statements and seen them applied in our church practice (except when our ELCA leaders declare that they do not apply to our church practice), I'm not sure how either.

:(
Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

readselerttoo

#41
ELCA social statements are descriptive and serve the purpose for opinion only.  I don't believe that they help or hurt.  Like opinions of the court they may or may not influence the final verdict.  God is not happy with opinio legis.  God wants perfect, thorough and constant justice NOW.  God does not stand our opinions and is waiting angrily for us to do right.  Preaching of Gods law says that we need to all repent now!  See Romans 1 and 3.  ELCA social statements continue to put off the job of calling each person individually and collectively to repentance.  These statements as descriptive purport to set readers at a distance so that they can be the judges rather than be placed under judgment which is a sinner's proper place to be.   A church needs to do that instead of churning out more fodder for human-to-human activity which is the Kantian project and not Gods project.

Apologies requested for bad punctuation...my editor went to bed! Lol

Donald_Kirchner

Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Rahn on November 23, 2017, 08:01:36 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on November 23, 2017, 07:09:30 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 23, 2017, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on November 23, 2017, 03:38:55 PM
While I'm here

1283-1286
"In all cases, their status as undocumented must not be an obstacle to
the safety and well-being all humans need. On the contrary, their status as
sojourners in this society invokes the biblical injunctions for special care and
concern (Leviticus 19:34)"

I'm neither arguing for or against their position on immigration.
What I don't understand is when/how Leviticus may be used as a proof-text/example.


In the same way Jesus used Leviticus as a proof-text/example of the great commandment. Jesus didn't make it up. He quoted Leviticus 19:18; and Deuteronomy 6:5. The Torah remains an expression of God's will for humanity. We can certainly learn from the commands about how God expects us to live together peacefully and justly.

That's not unpacked enough for me.  The LCMS makes some distinctions I can wrap my head around.  Not sure how the ELCA does.

Yes.  Distinctions need to be made.  Love under the law is different from love under the Gospel.


Nope. Love (agape) is about things we do for the benefit of others and self and God. It is not an emotion. It is not even a motivation. It is concrete acts - like giving water to the thirsty, food to the hungry, clothes to the naked, visiting the lonely. It might be argued that some may do these acts for selfish reasons - what they get out of it, which may be good feelings. Others may do these acts without expecting anything in return. I imagine that many people do such acts expecting nothing in return, but find themselves blessed anyway.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Rahn on November 23, 2017, 08:12:31 PM
The use of Leviticus and Deuteronomy only reinforces what I wrote above.  It refers to love of neighbor and it is political agenda exclusively.  The ELCA liberal left co-opts the use of the Old Testament to advance its agenda and calls it gospel agenda.


Huh? I've never heard it called "gospel agenda".


QuoteAs a political/social institution the ELCA needs to be honest with itself and stop mingling the gospel (another gospel) with the law of love.  Or at least be honest enough with itself and clarify that they are trying to find peace and justice under the law as a political agenda which is in contra-distinction to the Christian Gospel which conveys no political issue.


I have only heard the commands to love as falling under uses of the Law. The Law remains God's Word for us. God uses the Law for two (or maybe three) purposes. If we are to preach the Word of God, we must preach Law as well as Gospel. We might call the Law our alien preaching and the gospel our proper preaching - like God's alien and proper works: wrath and grace.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk