And lead us not into temptation

Started by Norman Teigen, December 08, 2017, 08:01:55 AM

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Charles Austin

I'm thinking of joining an LCMS congregation, Pastor Kirchner. Then I could give you a hand in some of your current struggles, couldn't I?
::)
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 11, 2017, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on December 11, 2017, 07:33:57 AM
I suspect that 200 years from now most Christians will continue to use King Jamesish English words in it.

Show me where the King James Version uses "trespasses" in the Lord's Prayer.

Why?  As you can see, Pr. Culler didn't say it did.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

aletheist

Quote from: Dave Benke on December 10, 2017, 08:38:44 PM
Quote from: John_Hannah on December 10, 2017, 01:46:01 PMJust like the Small Catechism.
Yes.  Aletheist neatly dodged that equation, but there it is.
I dodged nothing; I simply made the obvious distinction between a translation and an explanation, as did Luther himself.  Overall, I concur with the reasoning in this article.  I also generally agree with Luther's catechetical philosophy that when it comes to the basic texts themselves, a pastor should "choose one form to which he adheres, and which he inculcates all the time, year after year ... Also our blessed fathers understood this well; for they all used the same form of the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, and the Ten Commandments ... Hence, choose whatever form you please, and adhere to it forever" (SC Preface).
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on December 11, 2017, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 11, 2017, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on December 11, 2017, 07:33:57 AM
I suspect that 200 years from now most Christians will continue to use King Jamesish English words in it.

Show me where the King James Version uses "trespasses" in the Lord's Prayer.

Why?  As you can see, Pr. Culler didn't say it did.


You're correct. However, the most "King Jamesish" version would be from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.

Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
But deliver us from evil:
[For thine is the kingdom, the power,and the glory, for ever and ever.]
Amen.


One could go back to the first Book of Common Prayer in 1549 that precedes the King James Translation.

Our father, whyche art in heaven,
halowed be thy name.
Thy Kyngdome come.
Thy wyll be doen in yearth, as it is in heaven.
Geve us this daye our dayly breade.
And forgeve us our trespaces, as wee forgeve them that trespasse agaynst us.
And leade us not into temptacion.
But deliver us from evill.
Amen.

The Lord's Prayer in English has gone through numerous translations (and spellings). Why not use the ELLC version which has the largest group of church bodies involved in the translation of the prayer?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 11, 2017, 01:58:42 PM
Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on December 11, 2017, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 11, 2017, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on December 11, 2017, 07:33:57 AM
I suspect that 200 years from now most Christians will continue to use King Jamesish English words in it.

Show me where the King James Version uses "trespasses" in the Lord's Prayer.

Why?  As you can see, Pr. Culler didn't say it did.

You're correct. However, the most "King Jamesish" version would be from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.


So what?

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on December 11, 2017, 01:58:42 PM
The Lord's Prayer in English has gone through numerous translations (and spellings). Why not use the ELLC version which has the largest group of church bodies involved in the translation of the prayer?


Why not use it?  Because few English-speaking Christian congregations, or English-speaking Christians, even those who are in church bodies with liturgists who are members of ELLC, actually use the ELLC version.  As the ELLC itself acknowledges.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

MaddogLutheran

#35
Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on December 11, 2017, 05:19:32 PM
Why not use it?  Because few English-speaking Christian congregations, or English-speaking Christians, even those who are in church bodies with liturgists who are members of ELLC, actually use the ELLC version.  As the ELLC itself acknowledges.

But, but, but, it's...ecumenical!  8)

Last Sunday, driving home from church, I heard a public radio story about the historical search for a "universal" language in the scientific community...and how Esparanto was deficient despite its excellent pedigree and we ended up by default with English.  Darn cultural imperialists.
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Richard Johnson

Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on December 11, 2017, 07:33:57 AM
I suspect that 200 years from now most Christians will continue to use King Jamesish English words in it.

I suspect that 200 years from now most Christians won't speak any kind of English, Kings Jamesish or not.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Donald_Kirchner

#37
Quote from: Richard Johnson on December 11, 2017, 09:53:28 PM
Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on December 11, 2017, 07:33:57 AM
I suspect that 200 years from now most Christians will continue to use King Jamesish English words in it.

I suspect that 200 years from now most Christians won't speak any kind of English, Kings Jamesish or not.

That is one of the most insightful and profound, albeit scary, statements I've read hereon.

The Koran lays out exactly how it will take place.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Mike in Pennsylvania

I suspect what Pastor Johnson means is that the majority of the world's Christians will be speaking Swahili, Chinese, and other languages which are not English -- as may already be the case.
NALC Interim Pastor

Charles Austin

 Ffor hundreds of years, almost no one in the Faith spoke English, certainly not a majority.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Mike in Ohio on December 12, 2017, 08:29:40 AM
I suspect what Pastor Johnson means is that the majority of the world's Christians will be speaking Swahili, Chinese, and other languages which are not English -- as may already be the case.

Whew!
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Timothy Schenks

Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on December 12, 2017, 09:40:36 AM
Quote from: Mike in Ohio on December 12, 2017, 08:29:40 AM
I suspect what Pastor Johnson means is that the majority of the world's Christians will be speaking Swahili, Chinese, and other languages which are not English -- as may already be the case.

Whew!

I was thinking of the 1970 movie Beneath the Planet of the Apes.
LCMS Layman

Richard Johnson

Mike is correct. That is what I meant. And indeed it may already be the case. Read Philip Jenkins' The next Christendom : the coming of global Christianity for a persuasive argument about this.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Dave Benke

Quote from: Richard Johnson on December 12, 2017, 10:42:29 AM
Mike is correct. That is what I meant. And indeed it may already be the case. Read Philip Jenkins' The next Christendom : the coming of global Christianity for a persuasive argument about this.

Yes.  My congregation is bounded by a large group of folks from Bangladesh.  Who speak Bangla/Bengali, which I thought was a little linguistic sub-unit.  Except it's the 7th largest language in the world and 2-300 million people are using it every day.  I went for Spanish at an early age as a "second" language, but should have left some room for additional training.  Feels too late now, but I suppose any old dog can learn a few new tricks.

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

Terry W Culler

I have read, can't tell if it's true or not, that there are more people worshiping Jesus in China every Sunday than in the US.  Even if it's not true, add China to Korea and India and I'm sure the number gets pretty darn big.  The gates of hell are indeed not prevailing against the Church of Jesus Christ.
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

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