July 4th—the New High Holy Day

Started by RogerMartim, July 03, 2016, 09:22:51 PM

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RogerMartim

When did it become such?

After Christmas and Easter, the Church seems to be putting out all the stops that July 4th be celebrated to the extreme.

All the hymns today at church were all about USA. The Prayer of the Church reflected the same. Flags were planted around the block. When did God become the God of the USA? I thought he was the God of the universe. Is not God a God of a Brazilian, a German, a Tanzanian?

In this election year we have come up with candidates who smirk, call names, and extol family values in which they practice none. And we certainly don't want anyone to be denied their right to have an assault gun.

The false patriotism and flag worshipping are the Golden Calves of the 20th and 21st century. Really folks, we need to look beyond our own noses.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 03, 2016, 09:22:51 PM
When did it become such?

After Christmas and Easter, the Church seems to be putting out all the stops that July 4th be celebrated to the extreme.

All the hymns today at church were all about USA. The Prayer of the Church reflected the same. Flags were planted around the block. When did God become the God of the USA? I thought he was the God of the universe. Is not God a God of a Brazilian, a German, a Tanzanian?

In this election year we have come up with candidates who smirk, call names, and extol family values in which they practice none. And we certainly don't want anyone to be denied their right to have an assault gun.

The false patriotism and flag worshipping are the Golden Calves of the 20th and 21st century. Really folks, we need to look beyond our own noses.


Perhaps you could take a poll to see who sang patriotic songs today and/or had flags in the church, etc.


We sang no patriotic songs. None were played as prelude or postlude music. Neither the Fourth of July nor Independence Day were mentioned in the sermon. (The text was the sending and return of the 72.) I did make a statement about seeking to bring peace to our nation during what will be a contentious political campaign season. There was one petition recognizing those who suffered and died to create and keep our freedoms - and we should use them to spread the gospel of God's kingdom.


As the teacher of an American Civil Religion class stated, the Fourth of July is the high holy day of American Civil Religion (and that religion has no place for Jesus nor repentance. See how seldom Jesus is mentioned in the "patriotic hymns" in our hymnals.)
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Steven W Bohler

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 03, 2016, 09:22:51 PM
When did it become such?

After Christmas and Easter, the Church seems to be putting out all the stops that July 4th be celebrated to the extreme.

All the hymns today at church were all about USA. The Prayer of the Church reflected the same. Flags were planted around the block. When did God become the God of the USA? I thought he was the God of the universe. Is not God a God of a Brazilian, a German, a Tanzanian?

In this election year we have come up with candidates who smirk, call names, and extol family values in which they practice none. And we certainly don't want anyone to be denied their right to have an assault gun.

The false patriotism and flag worshipping are the Golden Calves of the 20th and 21st century. Really folks, we need to look beyond our own noses.

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:1-4)

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Rom 13:1)

"But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare." (Jer 29:7)

"Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor." (1 Pet 2:17)

"Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people." (Tit 3:1-2)


Dan Fienen

In our teaching and preaching are we not to address the entirety of our people's lives?  Is not all of their lives fodder for our worship?  Is their civic lives to be totally separate from their religious lives so that as a church and a worshipping community has nothing to say about their citizenship in this world.

l believe that we actually have much to thank God for in our country, as well as much to pray about before God.  And as I mentioned in my sermon today, it is our country right or wrong.  Where it is  correct, we give thanks and encouage.  Where it is wrong work to correct.

Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

 At worship today, we prayed for our country (as we usually do), for safe travels for those on the road, and we sang "God Bless Our Native Land."
But it was hardly a nation-oriented worship.
There is no shortage of voices extolling the "blessedness" of our country, the superiority of everything about us, and promoting the view that we are at the top of the world and the world's most worthy recipient of God's beneficence. We Christians should have no part of that nationalistic jingoism, but stress that God is Lord of all nations, understand our need for humility and repentance and extol the blessedness of the whole earth and all its peoples as God's creation.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

J. Thomas Shelley

In the Orthodox Church we prayed the Royal Troparia at the beginning of Orthros "O Lord, save The people and bless thine inheritance....", a line which was then repeated after Communion.

As the precious Gifts were carried in the Great Entrance the Priest prayed for "The President of the United States and our civil authorties and our Armed Forces everywhere; may the Lord remember them in His heavenly kingdom, always, now, and ever, and unto Ages of age."

This is done at every Divine Liturgy, irrespective its proximity to holidays on the civil calendar.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Dan Fienen

Jingoism should have no place in our worship.    But what constitutes jingism?  For some, anything good said about the U. S. A.  is considered jingoistic.  Personally I think that defeats the purpose.  If we as clergy cannot model a reasonable view of America,  but only recognize the bad, or the good, that is likely to be rejected by our people as one sided.  People are not  perfect, none of them are,  all need correcting and the forgiveness that comes through Jesus.  Our nation, made up of sinful people is likewise imperfect and is in need of correcting and the people who foster the imperfections need forgiveness.  But there also is needed a recognition of the good that is in America so that can be encouraged and God thanked.  That is notb or at least need not be jingoism.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Diego

#7
We did in our church sing God Bless America, and patriotic music was played as prelude music. When I pray Morning and Evening Prayer, in the 1979 BCP, I have PERSONALLY rewritten the text to conform with that of the 1662 BCP of the C of E wherein it differs, at least in certain respects as regards the Preces. But my wife would probably find it odd to hear prayer for "God save the Queen", which I personally would prefer to do, so I use 1928 USA wording, "God save the State".

I am able to do this kind of rewriting of the BCP simply because I know the Anglican Liturgies of the 1549, 1552, 1559, 1562, all of England, and the 1892, 1928, and 1979, all of the USA, like the back of my own HAND. Personal use of several of them, and graduate work on the subject will do that for you. I would NOT presume to know other Liturgies so well, although I do know a fair amount about liturgics generally speaking.

But in general, in the USA, you will find that church attendance is much higher than you find in Western Europe. And we DO, in this country, particularly down South, where I lived for a few years, have what Europeans consider a VERY abnormal habit of bringing God into politics. Even in countries with State Churches God is not mentioned nearly as often in political discourse as he is in this country. I have had many European friends over the years just give me odd looks regarding that topic.

In Latin America, most of the nations operate under the Code Napoleon. One is required to have a civil marriage. One can have a church marriage if one wishes, and most people do, but it is NOT recognized by the State. And God is very rarely brought up in civil discourse. In fact, in a country like Mexico, one would be committing political suicide if one even made the attempt to do so, given the history of that country vis a vis religion generally, and the Catholic Church in particular.

So, it gets interesting

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Diego on July 03, 2016, 11:08:40 PM
We did in our church sing God Bless America, and patriotic music was played as prelude music. When I pray Morning and Evening Prayer, in the 1979 BCP, I have PERSONALLY rewritten the text to conform with that of the 1662 BCP of the C of E wherein it differs, at least in certain respects as regards the Preces. But my wife would probably find it odd to hear prayer for "God save the Queen", which I personally would prefer to do, so I use 1928 USA wording, "God save the State".

In your many travels and changes of religion did you somewhere along the way renounce your US citizenship and become a naturalized subject of the Queen in the United Kingdom?  Or is this just another of your personal quirks that in praying for your country and its head of state you prefer to pretend that you are an Englishman?  I will agree that the Queen of England is in need of prayer as much as the next person.  But in addition to praying for the Queen of England do you also pray for your own country?  If not, why not?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Team Hesse

Quote from: RogerMartim on July 03, 2016, 09:22:51 PM
When did it become such?

After Christmas and Easter, the Church seems to be putting out all the stops that July 4th be celebrated to the extreme.

All the hymns today at church were all about USA. The Prayer of the Church reflected the same. Flags were planted around the block. When did God become the God of the USA? I thought he was the God of the universe. Is not God a God of a Brazilian, a German, a Tanzanian?

In this election year we have come up with candidates who smirk, call names, and extol family values in which they practice none. And we certainly don't want anyone to be denied their right to have an assault gun.

The false patriotism and flag worshipping are the Golden Calves of the 20th and 21st century. Really folks, we need to look beyond our own noses.


Not anywhere I have ever worshiped....


Lou

Donald_Kirchner

Hmm, I thought today was Sunday, July 3rd. Our theme was that peace that passes all understanding.

BTW, I "certainly don't want anyone to be denied their right to have an assault gun." Isn't that what the 2nd Amendment is about?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Diego

Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 03, 2016, 11:34:54 PM
Quote from: Diego on July 03, 2016, 11:08:40 PM
We did in our church sing God Bless America, and patriotic music was played as prelude music. When I pray Morning and Evening Prayer, in the 1979 BCP, I have PERSONALLY rewritten the text to conform with that of the 1662 BCP of the C of E wherein it differs, at least in certain respects as regards the Preces. But my wife would probably find it odd to hear prayer for "God save the Queen", which I personally would prefer to do, so I use 1928 USA wording, "God save the State".

In your many travels and changes of religion did you somewhere along the way renounce your US citizenship and become a naturalized subject of the Queen in the United Kingdom?  Or is this just another of your personal quirks that in praying for your country and its head of state you prefer to pretend that you are an Englishman?  I will agree that the Queen of England is in need of prayer as much as the next person.  But in addition to praying for the Queen of England do you also pray for your own country?  If not, why not?

I'll admit, that is a personal quirk of mine, related to AS, and my other associated "issues". I no longer feel the need to do it as much as I once did. But at one time it was REAL bad. I tend to be a little odd about it, just because I studied English history and culture from about the age of eight up, and did my graduate work in it. I won't deny, it's a bit messed up.

Diego

#12
I further admit to being a VERY old fashioned man. This post that I am going to write will probably blow your minds upon reading it. I personally believe that the British Empire should NEVER have been dismantled. What should have happened instead is that the member nations should have been given increasing self-government. I mean, lets face it. Some parts of the British Empire were a mess BEFORE the British got there, and they have been a mess ever since the British left! There is even one nation that begged the British NOT to leave. And when the British left anyway, the end result was a horrifically brutal dictatorship.

There was a book I once read that was written in about 1930. It proposed that the United States and its dependencies, which at the time included the Philippines, and Britain and the British Empire, unite in a confederal government.

I think the idea was BRILLIANT. Now, was the British Empire perfect? Hardly! But it was darned sure better than people give it credit for. Take Gandhi as an example. He did what he did BECAUSE British law gave him inalienable rights. If India had been ruled by Germany, or Chiang Kai-Shek, or Stalin, or just about ANYBODY other than Britain, Gandhi would simply have been taken out back and shot, end of story.

What should have occurred is that all the nations of the Empire should have been given considerable internal Home Rule, and Britain could have kept external control. And an Imperial Parliament in London could have been literally made with representatives coming from all over the Empire to make laws for it, in addition to the British Parliament that made laws for Britain itself.

World history would have been different, and probably MUCH better for all concerned, if you ask me, which, admittedly, no one did.

SomeoneWrites

Certainly seems like a blessed day where I find myself in agreement with Team Hesse, Dan Fienen, Charles Austin, Steven W Bohler, and Brian Stoffregen in the same thread.   

Happy 4th. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Steven W Bohler on July 03, 2016, 10:01:17 PM
Quote from: RogerMartim on July 03, 2016, 09:22:51 PM
When did it become such?

After Christmas and Easter, the Church seems to be putting out all the stops that July 4th be celebrated to the extreme.

All the hymns today at church were all about USA. The Prayer of the Church reflected the same. Flags were planted around the block. When did God become the God of the USA? I thought he was the God of the universe. Is not God a God of a Brazilian, a German, a Tanzanian?

In this election year we have come up with candidates who smirk, call names, and extol family values in which they practice none. And we certainly don't want anyone to be denied their right to have an assault gun.

The false patriotism and flag worshipping are the Golden Calves of the 20th and 21st century. Really folks, we need to look beyond our own noses.

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:1-4)

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Rom 13:1)

"But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare." (Jer 29:7)

"Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor." (1 Pet 2:17)

"Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people." (Tit 3:1-2)


Don't forget Revelation 13:5-10 where the "beast" is the Roman Empire.

5The beast was given a mouth that spoke boastful and blasphemous things, and it was given authority to act for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God. It blasphemed God's name and his dwelling place (that is, those who dwell in heaven).

7It was also allowed to make war on the saints and to gain victory over them. It was given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation. 8All who live on earth worshipped it, all whose names hadn't been written—from the time the earth was made—in the scroll of life of the lamb who was slain. 9Whoever has ears must listen: 10If any are to be taken captive, then into captivity they will go. If any are to be killed by the sword, then by the sword they will be killed. This calls for endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

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