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The holiday that hurts

Started by LutherMan, November 09, 2015, 05:08:17 PM

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Terry W Culler

Quote from: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 09:16:06 PM
Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on November 11, 2015, 08:48:03 PM
If we want to honor veterans we will stop getting into these pseudo-wars and follow the Constitution.

Terrorism is an unconventional form of war.  Are you really okay with more 9/11 style attacks on our own soil?  Are you really okay with standing by while innocent girls are taken captive in Africa and the Middle East (and other places to be sure) and kept as sex slaves and/or slaughtered under the guise of serving a disgusting and distorted notion of a false God?  Who will hear their pleas for help?  Should we sit back and do nothing while the innocent perish?  Ignore their please for our intervention, in other words?  That, sir, is cowardly.  When it's our own daughters, it will be too late.  And make no mistake, they are coming for our daughters.

Please forgive me if I say this sounds just a tad hysterical.  My statements in favor of operating solely in ways congruent with the Constitution in no way leads to a conclusion that I want people to die or be sold into slavery.  Your assertion simply can't withstand 10 seconds of consecutive thought. Let me ask you--how much liberty are you willing to surrender to be safe?  How many countries are you willing to attack?  Who gets to make these decisions?  John Quincy Adams best reflected Washington's concerns about foreign entanglements when he wrote that America is a well wisher to all who seek liberty, but she is the guarantor only of her own.
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Buckeye Deaconess

Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on November 12, 2015, 10:15:53 AM
Who gets to make these decisions?

Elected officials, chosen by the people, make these decisions, obviously.  Some decisions are boneheaded, of course.  Criticism of those decisions should rightfully fall on those making them, not on the backs of brave servicemen and servicewomen who uphold the oath they took to serve their country.

When you've been a victim of a Muslim physically violating you, then you have every right to call my claims hysterical.  My claim is based on present news coverage of actual events and circumstances that are being ignored by the MSM as well as my own experience in Europe almost 25 years ago with a group of Turkish teenagers.  Those of you who can appreciate our military's fine training will also appreciate that I put my own military police training to good use in response.  ;D

dkeener

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian

Kurt Weinelt

Quote from: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

dkeener

 
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 11:30:07 AM
Quote from: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.

I couldn't agree more - my apologies for not pausing to think before posting.

LutherMan

Quote from: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 12:15:16 PM
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 11:30:07 AM
Quote from: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.

I couldn't agree more - my apologies for not pausing to think before posting.
Relax, guys...
;)

Kurt Weinelt

Quote from: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 12:15:16 PM
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 11:30:07 AM
Quote from: dkeener on November 12, 2015, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on November 12, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AM
At this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.


What about those who denigrate socialism while cashing their social security checks?

What?  :-\  I don't think you thought this one through Brian
Since this is a Veterans Day thread, maybe a new thread on socialism would be a more appropriate place to knock THAT hanging curve out of the park.

I couldn't agree more - my apologies for not pausing to think before posting.
Sorry----that one wasn't aimed at you, but the "pitcher" of that hanging curve.
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

Charles Austin

The deaconess writes:
When you've been a victim of a Muslim physically violating you, then you have every right to call my claims hysterical.  My claim is based on present news coverage of actual events and circumstances that are being ignored by the MSM as well as my own experience in Europe almost 25 years ago with a group of Turkish teenagers.  Those of you who can appreciate our military's fine training will also appreciate that I put my own military police training to good use in response.

I comment:
Utter nonesense. Do I have to be a "victim" of racism before I oppose it or work against it? I was once hassled and threated by a group of bikers, so does that mean I'm going to call down every time I see a group of guys on motorcycles? 
Most of the assaults on women in this country do not come from Muslims (and I hear the situation in the military ain't so great on this matter of sexual harrassment).
We need to work at learning how to live with groups of people, some of whom aren't always nice, and learn how to make more of them "nice," if that is necessary. We need to do that more than denounce them and be so gosh-darned proud that our military might or our military training can wipe them out or put them down.
Iowa-born. ELCA pastor, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. English major. Elitist snob? Probably.

John Mundinger

Quote from: Kurt Weinelt on November 12, 2015, 09:57:06 AMAt this point I will echo Chaplain Gard's point...using freedom of speech to denigrate veterans on Veterans Day is akin to cussing farmers with your mouth full. And both are equally attractive.

Nobody used this thread to denigrate Veterans - with the possible exception of some who equate support for failed policies with support for the troops.  Allowing politicians who advocate war to hide behind our military personnel is a variation on the same thing as spitting on soldiers to protest war.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Donald_Kirchner

#116
Quote from: John Mundinger on November 12, 2015, 04:24:45 PM
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12189123_1179719395372370_3207236668085937277_n.jpg?oh=dad9bdff3358617aa33190e656ea8318&oe=56F6A2D2

Sorry LutherMan...

What an absolutely ignorant and misguided statement of passivity!

"Rubio insisted we build up our military because we have radical enemies around the world. Radical jihadists in the Middle East, radical Shia clerics in Iran, the Chinese taking over the South China Sea, just to name a few.

'We can't even have an economy if we're not safe,' he said."

Radical enemies vowing to take us out. IOW, we cannot have freedom if we're not safe.

We honor the fallen soldier by cherishing and protecting the freedom that he or she won for us.

"Executive Mansion
Washington, Nov. 21, 1864

To Mrs. Bixby, Boston, Mass.
Dear Madam,

I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any word of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the republic they died to save. I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.

Yours very sincerely and respectfully,
A. Lincoln"
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

Do you really believe, Pastor Kirchner, that our obsessive, hyper, over-heated and jingoistic emphasis on the military is the way to make things better in today's world? No one discounts that "greatest generation," or the veterans who served in good conscience and bravely.
But what about "blessed are the peacemakers"? What about being as proud of those who seek other ways of building a world community? What about noting that in "winning" freedom for ourselves, we may have trampled on it for others? Those of you who get all martial-music high and flag-waving starry-eyed about "freedom" and "patriotism" may be closing your eyes to some very important things about today's world.
Not to mention some very important things about Christian witness.
Iowa-born. ELCA pastor, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. English major. Elitist snob? Probably.

Donald_Kirchner

#118
Quote from: Charles Austin on November 12, 2015, 10:03:33 PM
Do you really believe, Pastor Kirchner, that our obsessive, hyper, over-heated and jingoistic emphasis on the military is the way to make things better in today's world?...

But what about "blessed are the peacemakers"?

I deny the premise. My, your go-to response is the straw man, isn't it? Your posts certainly do manifest an intellectual dishonesty, Charles.

Peacemaking is a good thing. We cannot have peace if we're not safe.  First things first, Charles. Do you really want to espouse the Neville Chamberlain philosophy of obtaining peace?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

 Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.
Iowa-born. ELCA pastor, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. English major. Elitist snob? Probably.

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