Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...

Started by LutherMan, September 24, 2015, 01:54:30 PM

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Fletch

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; ... you prepare a table ..., you anoint my head ...." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


Quote from: RPG on September 25, 2015, 05:53:49 PMI almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.

... Fletch

Donald_Kirchner

#91
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 25, 2015, 06:37:42 PM
Perhaps not "stated" or "suggested," Pastor Kirchner, but implied, to be sure.

"I just don't like the idea that it is an 'evangelism' event..."

Evangelism: "the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness."

You know, proclaiming the Good News to those who mourn, who come to the funeral crushed by the law because death is there before them, that, as you claim to believe, "God's love is for all."

Your statement that such proclamation is "creepy" is astonishing. Your continued defense thereof is quite concerning.

But it is somewhat ironic that you would use a fishing metaphor to ridicule the proclamation of the gospel.

And now I need to follow the advice of Pastors Gage and Wolf.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Fletch on September 26, 2015, 08:43:42 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; ... you prepare a table ..., you anoint my head ...." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


Quote from: RPG on September 25, 2015, 05:53:49 PMI almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 11:38:04 AM
Quote from: Fletch on September 26, 2015, 08:43:42 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; ... you prepare a table ..., you anoint my head ...." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


Quote from: RPG on September 25, 2015, 05:53:49 PMI almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."

Which is a redundancy.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

as I recall, our Lord used a fishing Metaphor  when he spoke of what his followers would do.
And it should be clear in context, that I am using the word, "evangelism," in its "get new members" meaning,  not in the mere "proclamation" meaning.  How do you see the people attending a funeral? As those in need of comfort? Or as people who might be new members?
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis.
GUILTY on ALL 34 counts

Dan Fienen

I see those attending a funeral as people in need of comfort.  I have no greater comfort to give them than the Gospel of Jesus crucified for everyone and risen to give hope.  A hope that God offers through faith to everyone.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Team Hesse

#96
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 26, 2015, 12:16:17 PM
as I recall, our Lord used a fishing Metaphor  when he spoke of what his followers would do.
And it should be clear in context, that I am using the word, "evangelism," in its "get new members" meaning,  not in the mere "proclamation" meaning.  How do you see the people attending a funeral? As those in need of comfort? Or as people who might be new members?


Why is it not "both and" ? Most people who attend funerals are in need of comfort and, here in the PNW, not members of a church. I have never been a "hit 'em between the eyes with a 2X4 evangelist" but people do hear good news when I am asked to preach at a funeral and if some come back to hear more... what is wrong with that?


Lou

Dave Likeness

#97
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 11:45:24 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 11:38:04 AM
Quote from: Fletch on September 26, 2015, 08:43:42 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; ... you prepare a table ..., you anoint my head ...." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


Quote from: RPG on September 25, 2015, 05:53:49 PMI almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."

Which is a redundancy.


Nope, there are other types of services that are not worship, e.g., community service.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Team Hesse on September 26, 2015, 12:44:13 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 26, 2015, 12:16:17 PM
as I recall, our Lord used a fishing Metaphor  when he spoke of what his followers would do.
And it should be clear in context, that I am using the word, "evangelism," in its "get new members" meaning,  not in the mere "proclamation" meaning.  How do you see the people attending a funeral? As those in need of comfort? Or as people who might be new members?


Why is it not "both and" ? Most people who attend funerals are in need of comfort and, here in the PNW, not members of a church. I have never been a "hit 'em between the eyes with a 2X4 evangelist" but people do hear good news when I am asked to preach at a funeral and if some come back to hear more... what is wrong with that?


I doubt that you exhort the people at a funeral, "You need to join a church to prepare for your eternal life." This is about what I heard a Lutheran minister say to a packed gymnasium at the funeral of a high school student. There wasn't much comfort in his words.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dave Likeness on September 26, 2015, 01:08:56 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

readselerttoo

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: Dave Likeness on September 26, 2015, 01:08:56 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said. 

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 02:20:05 PM
Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on September 26, 2015, 11:45:24 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 11:38:04 AM
Quote from: Fletch on September 26, 2015, 08:43:42 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 25, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on September 25, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
God Is Here

"God is here! As we your people."

To whom does "your" refer?  Clearly it is to God, but God has just been spoken of in the third person.  It is awkward.


Note that Psalm 23 makes the same shift. "The Lord is my shepherd." Then there are lines starting with "He" through v. 3, but then vv. 4-5 change: "For you are with me; ... you prepare a table ..., you anoint my head ...." Also the hymns, "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" and "The Lord's My Shepherd" and "Shepherd Me, O God," make the same grammatical transitions.


Psalm 25 jumps back and forth between God as second person, "you," then to third person, "he," then back to "you." The grammar is awkward, but they are scriptures, so we use them.


Quote from: RPG on September 25, 2015, 05:53:49 PMI almost forgot about that one.  It's on the short of ELW hymns that get automatically nixed when I meet with the worship committee.   No one's asked to include it for a while.  :) 


Do you also nix Psalm 23 or 25 when they come up for worship?

Interesting choice of prepositions.  I was taught the word worship is primarily a verb.


The dictionary lists it both as a noun and a verb. We also use it as an adjective, e.g., "worship service."

Which is a redundancy.


Nope, there are other types of services that are not worship, e.g., community service.

Nope, you're missing the point. Communion service and Divine Service are not redundant. Worship service is.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Donald_Kirchner

#103
Quote from: readselerttoo on September 26, 2015, 02:40:40 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 26, 2015, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: Dave Likeness on September 26, 2015, 01:08:56 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.


That can happen, but I doubt that you planned the sermon with the idea, "I'm going to try and get people to join my church." That is kinda telling the Holy Spirit how and when to work.

No one here is saying that he did.  You are creating a context that has no bearing with what Pr. Likeness actually said.

Nor did Pr. Eckstein. It's a context/straw man created by Rev Austin for, to use another finishing metaphor, trolling purposes.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Dave Likeness on September 26, 2015, 01:08:56 PM
Pastor Lou Hesse is correct.  A funeral sermon should
both comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

At one funeral a family came up to me after the luncheon
and said they wanted to start attending our church.  They
were lapsed Lutherans who had not attended a worship
service in 10 years.  The wife said it was good to hear
the law and gospel from the pulpit. They eventually joined
our parish after 3 months.

Bottom Line:  The Holy Spirit works wonders through the
hearing of God's Word.  We cannot tell the Holy Spirit when
to work and when not to work.

Change it to the Holy Ghost and your actions will be really creepy to Rev Austin.   ;)
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

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