Pope Francis in the news again...

Started by RogerMartim, September 20, 2013, 06:24:43 PM

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RogerMartim

I am a bit skeptical of the secular media in being able to convey to the world-at-large what Pope Francis really means in his recent statements, but let's say that it got it right. The Church has been too focused on issues that do not impact a huge, huge, huge  segment of society. What to do? Birth Control? Divorce? Homosexuality?

Again, let's just say that the media got it right. Pope Francis doesn't seem to be hung up on these issues.

Is LC-MS is going to be left behind with the fundamentalists, an anachronism in modern Christianity? Europe is dead because of this. America is next?


RogerMartim

Mr. Erdner, I'm sorry that I posted on a subject already touched upon. I guess I wasn't careful enough. Thank you for being the ALPB policeman. You'll have to tell me what the role of a moderator is. Are you one of them? If you are not, then let them take care of the matter. No need for you to be wasting keystrokes.

Charles_Austin

For heaven's sake!It was a small matter. Mr. Erdner must be having a bad day. Don't take offense Roger Martim, he gets that way sometimes. Always trying to correct other people.  ::) ;)

LutherMan


RogerMartim

Mr. Erdner, this is not a complicated place where we need good citizens to keep good order in the neighborhood. This place is not like Chicago was last night. I think our moderators do an excellent job at keeping order here. Why are you so upset that I created a post on a subject that might have already been touched upon? Duplicate posts occur all the time here. And if a particular post doesn't meet your stringent criteria, you're only a mouse click away from the next one that might be more up your alley.

Pastor Ken Kimball

Quote from: RogerMartim on September 20, 2013, 06:24:43 PM
I am a bit skeptical of the secular media in being able to convey to the world-at-large what Pope Francis really means in his recent statements, but let's say that it got it right. The Church has been too focused on issues that do not impact a huge, huge, huge  segment of society. What to do? Birth Control? Divorce? Homosexuality?

Again, let's just say that the media got it right. Pope Francis doesn't seem to be hung up on these issues.

Is LC-MS is going to be left behind with the fundamentalists, an anachronism in modern Christianity? Europe is dead because of this. America is next?
I bolded what I found interesting: interesting in the sense of "really?"   Are you saying that Europe is dead (and by that I'm going out on a limb to read that as "European Christianity" or the "Church in Europe") because of the anachronistic fundamentalists in Europe?   Really?  Europe was where liberal, revisionist Christianity first blossomed.  Think of the first and second searches for the historic Jesus.  Think Schleiermacher.  Think Harnack.  Schweitzer.  Bultmann. Et al.  Liberal, revisionist Protestantism won the day.  Their churches should be booming, filled with the cheering masses glad to exchange their secular porridge for liberal religion.  And the reason that didn't happen or isn't happening is due to "anachronistic fundamentalists" in Europe?  And now it's going to happen in America?  That fundamentalists like LC-MS and other traditional, conservative, orthodox church bodies are the cancer that kills modern Christianity.  That if the LC-MS and others would simply get with the program of "modern Christianity" that somehow Christianity and the church would boom and prosper and expand in North America?  Really?  Shouldn't there be some empirical evidence that "modern Christianity" at least in terms of those mainline Protestant church bodies that are its heralds is actually growing or at least holding steady or at the least, declining more slowly than those fundamentalist anachronisms? 

Well at least there are those growing churches and growing Christianity in Africa and Asia.  They must have gotten the memo and gotten with the "modern Christianity" program.  That would explain their explosive growth.  Oh, wait.  They're even more "fundamentalist" (apparently your derogatory term of the day) and conservative than LC-MS and others of their ilk in North America. 

I was once a professing agnostic (not enough faith to be an atheist).  There's nothing in liberal, revisionist modern Christianity that would get me out of bed on a Sunday or any other day of the week.   If liberal revisionist modern Christianity were the only choice for being a Christian, I'd go back to being an agnostic and living for myself pagan.   

Charles_Austin

O my! O my! What a foul unpleasantness have we? Let he who sinneth never take his words of snark and lose them in the cyber-dark unformed and unposted. Waste not the precious minds of those who, for purpose of enlightenment habituate hereon and loathe to hear again the mean rebuff, the sordid kvetch, the non-euphonious snarl of self-appointed constables of order.
Tis most foul! May there be a loud amen and rapid end.

Jeremy Loesch

Quote from: Pastor Ken Kimball on September 20, 2013, 08:56:53 PM
Quote from: RogerMartim on September 20, 2013, 06:24:43 PM
I am a bit skeptical of the secular media in being able to convey to the world-at-large what Pope Francis really means in his recent statements, but let's say that it got it right. The Church has been too focused on issues that do not impact a huge, huge, huge  segment of society. What to do? Birth Control? Divorce? Homosexuality?

Again, let's just say that the media got it right. Pope Francis doesn't seem to be hung up on these issues.

Is LC-MS is going to be left behind with the fundamentalists, an anachronism in modern Christianity? Europe is dead because of this. America is next?
I bolded what I found interesting: interesting in the sense of "really?"   Are you saying that Europe is dead (and by that I'm going out on a limb to read that as "European Christianity" or the "Church in Europe") because of the anachronistic fundamentalists in Europe?   Really?  Europe was where liberal, revisionist Christianity first blossomed.  Think of the first and second searches for the historic Jesus.  Think Schleiermacher.  Think Harnack.  Schweitzer.  Bultmann. Et al.  Liberal, revisionist Protestantism won the day.  Their churches should be booming, filled with the cheering masses glad to exchange their secular porridge for liberal religion.  And the reason that didn't happen or isn't happening is due to "anachronistic fundamentalists" in Europe?  And now it's going to happen in America?  That fundamentalists like LC-MS and other traditional, conservative, orthodox church bodies are the cancer that kills modern Christianity.  That if the LC-MS and others would simply get with the program of "modern Christianity" that somehow Christianity and the church would boom and prosper and expand in North America?  Really?  Shouldn't there be some empirical evidence that "modern Christianity" at least in terms of those mainline Protestant church bodies that are its heralds is actually growing or at least holding steady or at the least, declining more slowly than those fundamentalist anachronisms? 

Well at least there are those growing churches and growing Christianity in Africa and Asia.  They must have gotten the memo and gotten with the "modern Christianity" program.  That would explain their explosive growth.  Oh, wait.  They're even more "fundamentalist" (apparently your derogatory term of the day) and conservative than LC-MS and others of their ilk in North America. 

I was once a professing agnostic (not enough faith to be an atheist).  There's nothing in liberal, revisionist modern Christianity that would get me out of bed on a Sunday or any other day of the week.   If liberal revisionist modern Christianity were the only choice for being a Christian, I'd go back to being an agnostic and living for myself pagan.   

Ken, thanks for the defense of the LCMS.  I appreciated your words.  They did a nice job of conveying another perspective.

I would add that being left behind is not as horrible as it may seem or be the slam that it was intended to be.  Noah and his family were left behind.  The others that perished in the Flood were taken.  Being left behind and shut up in the Ark meant the salvation of Noah and his family.  Being left behind and shut up in the holy Ark of the Church, being given the opportunity to preach the life-saving message of Christ crucified cannot be a bad thing.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Charles_Austin

 Pastor Kimball writes:
There's nothing in liberal, revisionist modern Christianity that would get me out of bed on a Sunday or any other day of the week.

I comment:
Not even the proclamation that your sins are forgiven? That Jesus Christ died for you? That we are reunited with God by grace through faith? That scripture teaches us who God is and who we are? Not even a celebration of the eucharist? Not even fellowship with other believers and a chance to show the Gospel to the world?
For that's what most of us in "liberal, revisionist modern Christianity" preach. At least that's how I experience the ELCA.
But if that doesn't get you to leave St. Mattress or the pillow parish on Sunday morning; is it OK for the rest of us? Are we still in the faith?

FrPeters

To get back to the thread topic, I do NOT think the media got it right at all.  What the Pope was saying is that the world is reading the Gospel and judging the Church through the issues of abortion, sexuality, and marriage.  That is wrong.  The Pope was saying that the Church sees abortion, sexuality, and marriage through the Gospel.  Period.  The Church needs to make sure that the witness is to the Gospel and not simply a commentary on certain issues.  That does not represent a break from the past at all but merely a nuanced difference in the way of approaching these issues and the acknowledgement that the world is not reading past the issues to see or hear the Gospel... so Francis is calling the Church to speak the Gospel so clearly so that the issues of abortion, sexuality, and marriage will be clearly seen (not changed) in light of that Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.  Words we might all well heed.
Fr Larry Peters
Grace LCMS, Clarksville, TN
http://www.pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/

Team Hesse

In this case, from what I have been able to read, people on all sides do not seem to have ears to hear. Conservatives are upset that he is "moving away from" tradition and liberals are hoping for a "breath of change" so the church can be relevant. Neither is hearing what he is actually saying. I am not surprised by this.


Lou

John_Hannah

Timothy Cardinal Dolan, my favorite cardinal, when asked about the obsession with sex, etc. that Pope Francis referred to retorted that it seems always to come up. You brought it up again.

Can it be that the American Church has indeed been seduced by the media to see everything through media's eyes where everything is reduced to sex? Being conservative or liberal is only about where one stands on sex and its many aspects. What about Trinity or justification or sacraments? The media doesn't care about any of that and now some in the church don't either.

I hope that Francis can nudge us Lutherans to get back to Luther's great insight about the two kingdoms. Thanks you Norman Teigen and Pope Francis.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

cssml

More words from pope Francis yesterday, in an address to the medical community:

"Each child who is unborn, but is unjustly condemned to be aborted, bears the face of Jesus Christ, bears the face of the Lord, who, even before he was born, and then as soon as he was born, experienced the rejection of the world. And also each old person - I spoke of the child, let us also speak of the elderly, another point! – each old person, even if infirm or at the end of his days, bears the face of Christ. They cannot be discarded, as the "culture of waste" proposes! They cannot be discarded!

3 . The third aspect is a mandate: be witnesses and speakers of this "culture of life" . Your being Catholic entails a greater responsibility: first of all to yourself, to be committed to being consistent with the Christian vocation; and then to contemporary culture, to contribute to recognising the transcendent dimension in human life, the imprint of the creative work of God, from the very first moment of conception. This is a commitment to the new evangelization that often requires going against the current, at a cost to the person. The Lord counts on you to spread the "Gospel of life."

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/popes-strong-words-in-defense-of-the-unborn


Charles_Austin

This is the kind of "oh yes, that too" comment that is often required when people's public statements draw controversy. It quiets some kinds of criticism, without withdrawing the statement that prompted the criticism, that criticism often being unfair.

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