Pope Francis in the news again...

Started by RogerMartim, September 20, 2013, 06:24:43 PM

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Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Charles_Austin on September 21, 2013, 10:20:06 AM
This is the kind of "oh yes, that too" comment that is often required when people's public statements draw controversy. It quiets some kinds of criticism, without withdrawing the statement that prompted the criticism, that criticism often being unfair.

I wish I could tell to which comment you are referring.  :-\
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Michael Slusser

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on September 21, 2013, 03:08:24 PM
Quote from: Charles_Austin on September 21, 2013, 10:20:06 AM
This is the kind of "oh yes, that too" comment that is often required when people's public statements draw controversy. It quiets some kinds of criticism, without withdrawing the statement that prompted the criticism, that criticism often being unfair.

I wish I could tell to which comment you are referring.  :-\

I don't.
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Charles_Austin

#17
He is responding to criticism of the entire interview. He said a number of things which bothered certain people on the traditionalist side of the Catholic Church. So the next day he says something to calm them down. Or To mollify certain of his advisers.

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles_Austin on September 21, 2013, 03:54:46 PM
He is responding to criticism of the entire interview. He said a number of things which bothered certain people on the traditionalist side of the Catholic Church. So the next day he says something to calm them down. Or To mollify certain of his advisers.

Wow, not only does Charles know what our real motivations are, no matter what we say, and what we think, he knows exactly what the Pope is thinking and what he means by what he says.

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles_Austin

Nope. I just spent years watching people in the public eye make comments, then have to deal with the reactions to those comments, and have to deal with the various parties in their particular organization. It ain't rocket surgery.

peter_speckhard

I don't know any traditionalists who were upset by the people's comments. They were upset, or perhaps just rolled their eyes,at the misreporting of the pope's comments by people who want nothing more than a pope who will upset traditionalists.

RogerMartim

In my initial post I apparently sent Mr. Erdner into a tizzy. I probably did not express myself clearly.

Abortion: I hate it with every passion I can muster, but I realize that it is never going to go away. I mourn with all my emotions to the women who make the decision to abort. The most conservative of SCOTUS have not touched Woe v Wade with a ten foot pole. And in the near or far future, this is not going to change.

Homosexuality: I'm Gay and so get used to it. I am not going to go away and neither are a good number of Lutheran folks who are on my side of the fence. There are lots of moral issues to work out but outright condemnation gets us nowhere. State by state, gay marriage is being recognized. Color us pink if you want, but the entire US is going to turn pink.

Rather than to do the same old, same old rhetoric which gets us nowhere, it is the responsibility of the Church to come up with new parameters. It is still good to express our concerns about the morality of abortion, homosexuality and other moral issues but outright condemnation does not work any longer and to wrap ourselves into a cocoon. Random and careless condemnations are recipes for many folks who turn to atheism.

I think that this is what Pope Francis is expressing. The old rhetoric of condemnation is not going to get us anywhere. We must find new ways to speak to the marginalized of our society. Good heavens, I don't think of myself as marginalized, but I guess a lot of you do.

Steven Tibbetts

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Steven Tibbetts

Roger, how does your rhetoric of brute power (We're here, so get used to it) and your empty hatred (it will never go away, so why do anything about it) offer something different from the "old rhetoric of condemnation" you are railing against? 

Your "new parameters" sound like submission to me, rather than the careful teaching offered by Pope Francis, his predecessors, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and her ministry with those who suffer from things the culture would have them celebrate.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on September 21, 2013, 06:46:14 PM
Roger, how does your rhetoric of brute power (We're here, so get used to it) and your empty hatred (it will never go away, so why do anything about it) offer something different from the "old rhetoric of condemnation" you are railing against? 

Your "new parameters" sound like submission to me, rather than the careful teaching offered by Pope Francis, his predecessors, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and her ministry with those who suffer from things the culture would have them celebrate.


To use an example from Leadership Without Easy Answers, at some point, persons with terminal cancer and their families, need to change their approach from fighting against the cancer - trying to fix the problem / cure the person (technical leadership in Heifetz's terms) to "adaptive leadership" (in his terms) where they recognize it as a problem that will not be fix; a disease that will not be cured, something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. It doesn't mean that they have to like the cancer; but recognizing that it's something they will have to live with.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

George Erdner


Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 21, 2013, 06:51:48 PM

It doesn't mean that they have to like the cancer; but recognizing that it's something they will have to live with.

Do you really want to use the anaolgy of dying from cancer here? 
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

DCharlton

#27
Quote from: RogerMartim on September 21, 2013, 05:19:19 PM
Homosexuality: I'm Gay and so get used to it. I am not going to go away and neither are a good number of Lutheran folks who are on my side of the fence. There are lots of moral issues to work out but outright condemnation gets us nowhere. State by state, gay marriage is being recognized. Color us pink if you want, but the entire US is going to turn pink.

Rather than to do the same old, same old rhetoric which gets us nowhere, it is the responsibility of the Church to come up with new parameters. It is still good to express our concerns about the morality of abortion, homosexuality and other moral issues but outright condemnation does not work any longer and to wrap ourselves into a cocoon. Random and careless condemnations are recipes for many folks who turn to atheism.

I think that this is what Pope Francis is expressing. The old rhetoric of condemnation is not going to get us anywhere. We must find new ways to speak to the marginalized of our society. Good heavens, I don't think of myself as marginalized, but I guess a lot of you do.

But Roger, outright condemnation works quite well.  It has stopped working for those who believe, for instance, that same sex marriage or ordination of partnered gays and lesbians is wrong.  It has become increasingly effective for those who favor the same. 

Outright condemnation of homosexuals has been out of favor in the ELCA for over 20 years.  Since 2009, outright affirmation is the norm.  The only people in the ELCA who might face outright condemnation are those who hesitate to offer outright affirmation.  Likewise, the fact that the Pope rejects outright condemnation will not shield him from outright condemnation if he fails to reverse the Catholic Churches teaching on homosexuality.

By the way, the Catechism of the Catholic Church rejects "outright condemnation", saying:

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.  (CCC, 2358)
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Charles_Austin

Roger Martim wrote:
Homosexuality: I'm Gay and so get used to it.

And Mr. Erdner steps in, posting:
That explains the hissy fit.

I comment:
Really? Good grief!

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on September 21, 2013, 07:52:07 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on September 21, 2013, 06:51:48 PM

It doesn't mean that they have to like the cancer; but recognizing that it's something they will have to live with.

Do you really want to use the anaolgy of dying from cancer here?


That's an analogy used in the book.


You can pick any analogy of an issue that requires people to adapt to the new situation, because it is not a problem that can be fixed. Legal abortions and same-gender marriages seem to be two such issues; declining youth in Sunday school is one that I have used in presentations. Almost no congregation will have the same crowds of youth that were present in the 50's and 60's; so they have to adapt to the changing demographics.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

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