Voting to keep "God" in the political process

Started by Coach-Rev, September 06, 2012, 11:28:27 AM

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peter_speckhard

When I first saw it, I did not take the booing to be directed toward the actual changes. Rather, they seemed to be booing the obviously bogus ruling of the chair that the ayes had it. And that is actually the bigger story. Quite apart from the specifics of tha language in the platform (and the Jerusalem thing has always been a dicey idea; Tel Aviv remains the purported capital of Israel on most maps and changing it to Jerusalem is tantamount in both Israeli and Palestinian eyes as accepting the outcome of the '67 War and "occupation" as the de facto new boundaries of Israel) the idea that the chair goes through the charade of a vote and then embraces a complete fiction for political expediency's sake as though it were actually the outcome of the political process speaks volumes about the comfort of the Chicago headquarters with the political machine's, well, political machinations.

Timotheus Verinus

That was my point Peter, (without comment on the Republicans or their convention.)

Even if I were to agree with them on every point, policy, and agenda, I could not follow them, nor take my eye off of them, because they demonstrated they have no character, no honesty, ... they have truly lost their soul.

That ... apart from being sad, is just plain scary... what is there to trust?

Add to this now, that the "message of the convention" was basically - "we know things are bad but we are going the right way, TRUST US, for results later" If I cannot trust them to take a vote in the open for all to plainly see, what can we trust behind closed doors?

God will be God, whatever is written by man. Israel will deal with her problems. Jobs are what they are, social verdicts wander afield .... but what if those leading us are soulless liars, unshamed of what they did in this simple matter? That indeed is serious, right or wrong. We saw into hearts, and it was not reassuring.

TV
TAALC Pastor

Rev. Matthew Uttenreither

Quote from: John_Hannah on September 07, 2012, 08:41:59 AM
Quote from: James Gustafson on September 07, 2012, 08:02:35 AM

Cardinal Dolan gave the benediction at both conventions.  Maybe I've just not been paying attention, but is that common?


I think they always have a benediction, usually by an acquaintance of one of the candidates. The Republicans asked Dolan this year. My guess about that choice was made for two purposes --

ONE. avoid the Mormon issue and place Romney with the mainstream;

TWO. highlight the religious (not just Catholic) opposition to the HHS ruling.

Immediately upon accepting, Dolan was accused of favoritism. He denied that, of course, and offered to provide the same for the Democrats. They accepted and invited him.

I see that the two prayers are identical. We will not know how he votes (or how Catholics "should" vote).

Peace, JOHN

The two prayers are not identical. 

From the prayer at Democrat convention concerning life:  Thus do we praise You for the gift of life. Grant us the courage to defend it: life, without which, no others rights are secure. We ask Your benediction on those waiting to be born and that they may be welcomed and protected. Strengthen our sick and our elders, waiting to see Your holy face at life's end, that they may be accompanied by true compassion and cherished with the dignity due those who are infirm and fragile.

From the Republican convention: Almighty God, Who gives us the sacred and inalienable gift of life, we thank You as well for the singular gift of liberty. Renew in all of our people the respect for religious freedom and fulfill that first, most cherished freedom. Make us truly free by tethering freedom to truth and ordering freedom to goodness. Help us live our freedom in faith, hope, and love - prudently and with justice - courageously, in a spirit of moderation.

It is obvious from the text that the Cardinal is purposely preaching a pro-life message to a party that has as part of its platform support for government funded abortion.  He also preaching against a health care program that would ration medical care to seniors.

Also, the Cardinal in his prayer at the DNC convention, is purposeful in his defense of marriage.  See how he changes the wording here:

At the RNC, the Cardinal says this- May we know the truth of Your Creation, respecting the laws of nature and of nature's God, and not seek to replace them with idols of our own making. Give us the good sense not to cast aside the boundaries of righteous living You first inscribed in our hearts before inscribing them on tablets of stone. May You mend our every flaw, confirming our soul in self-control, our liberty in law.

At the DNC, the Cardinal says this: We praise and thank You for giving us the life and liberty by which we can pursue happiness. Show us anew that happiness is found only in respecting the laws of nature and of nature's God. Empower us with Your grace so that we might resist the temptation to replace the moral law with idols of our own making, or to remake those institutions You've given us for the nurturing of life and community.

Also, the prayer at the DNC convention had alot of talk about religious freedom (more so than the one at the RNC).  So, I can't say that these are essentially the same prayers.  Did you actually read them?

George Erdner

Quote from: Mike Gehlhausen on September 07, 2012, 10:37:37 AM
Quote from: George Erdner on September 06, 2012, 07:54:47 PM
It bothers me that something like this even needs to be discussed and voted on. There are some things that should not need to be discussed. It says something about any organization that has to discuss and debate and then vote on something as simple and fundamental as this. It makes me question whether the organization that has to debate and vote on something like this even has any core values at all.

My question with this is that it seems more with recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel than with the naming of God.

Yeah, the conservatives make hay on the God issue, but shouldn't the actual Jerusalem -- vs. Tel Aviv I guess -- thing be the focus?

Perhaps I am missing the whole thing.

Mike

The whole Jerusalem versus Tel Aviv thing has nothing to do with "Voting to keep 'God' in the political process", which is what this thread is about. Whatever city Israel designates as their capital is Israel's business. That's grist for a discussion, but not this discussion.

peter_speckhard

Quote from: George Erdner on September 07, 2012, 03:42:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Gehlhausen on September 07, 2012, 10:37:37 AM
Quote from: George Erdner on September 06, 2012, 07:54:47 PM
It bothers me that something like this even needs to be discussed and voted on. There are some things that should not need to be discussed. It says something about any organization that has to discuss and debate and then vote on something as simple and fundamental as this. It makes me question whether the organization that has to debate and vote on something like this even has any core values at all.

My question with this is that it seems more with recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel than with the naming of God.

Yeah, the conservatives make hay on the God issue, but shouldn't the actual Jerusalem -- vs. Tel Aviv I guess -- thing be the focus?

Perhaps I am missing the whole thing.

Mike

The whole Jerusalem versus Tel Aviv thing has nothing to do with "Voting to keep 'God' in the political process", which is what this thread is about. Whatever city Israel designates as their capital is Israel's business. That's grist for a discussion, but not this discussion.
Nonsense. The two issues were proposed as one amendment to the platfom and it is impossible to distinguish the reaction of the crowd in terms of what they were objecting to. Certainly some Arab constituencies were enraged by the Jerusalem issue but probably welcomed the God inclusion. It was one event-- the vote of the DNC-- with all its related facets, such as the problematic voice vote, the nature of the wording, the reasons for the change in the first place and the source of the pressure to change it back included in the package. Unless you think we should about six or seven threads devoted to that five minute event at the convention, why not simply let those with something to say on the subject say it here?

Mike Gehlhausen

Quote from: Timotheus Verinus on September 07, 2012, 02:09:47 PM
That was my point Peter, (without comment on the Republicans or their convention.)

Even if I were to agree with them on every point, policy, and agenda, I could not follow them, nor take my eye off of them, because they demonstrated they have no character, no honesty, ... they have truly lost their soul.

That ... apart from being sad, is just plain scary... what is there to trust?

Add to this now, that the "message of the convention" was basically - "we know things are bad but we are going the right way, TRUST US, for results later" If I cannot trust them to take a vote in the open for all to plainly see, what can we trust behind closed doors?

God will be God, whatever is written by man. Israel will deal with her problems. Jobs are what they are, social verdicts wander afield .... but what if those leading us are soulless liars, unshamed of what they did in this simple matter? That indeed is serious, right or wrong. We saw into hearts, and it was not reassuring.

TV

I agree that we should be shocked, but I have been to enough political, church body, and congregation meetings to know that it is not exactly the rare event that the media has purported it to be while highlighting it.

Voice votes are always dicey and depend a lot on the integrity of the chair.  That is why most parliamentary processes allow a point of order to be made for balloted vote when the opinion of the chair on a voice vote is in dispute.

Why no one made such a request is beyond me; I truly would be surprised that the DNC had no mechanism to provide for a balloted vote.

Mike

cssml

Quote from: Rev. Matthew Uttenreither on September 07, 2012, 03:11:49 PM
Quote from: John_Hannah on September 07, 2012, 08:41:59 AM
Quote from: James Gustafson on September 07, 2012, 08:02:35 AM

Cardinal Dolan gave the benediction at both conventions.  Maybe I've just not been paying attention, but is that common?


I think they always have a benediction, usually by an acquaintance of one of the candidates. The Republicans asked Dolan this year. My guess about that choice was made for two purposes --

ONE. avoid the Mormon issue and place Romney with the mainstream;

TWO. highlight the religious (not just Catholic) opposition to the HHS ruling.

Immediately upon accepting, Dolan was accused of favoritism. He denied that, of course, and offered to provide the same for the Democrats. They accepted and invited him.

I see that the two prayers are identical. We will not know how he votes (or how Catholics "should" vote).

Peace, JOHN

The two prayers are not identical. 

From the prayer at Democrat convention concerning life:  Thus do we praise You for the gift of life. Grant us the courage to defend it: life, without which, no others rights are secure. We ask Your benediction on those waiting to be born and that they may be welcomed and protected. Strengthen our sick and our elders, waiting to see Your holy face at life's end, that they may be accompanied by true compassion and cherished with the dignity due those who are infirm and fragile.

From the Republican convention: Almighty God, Who gives us the sacred and inalienable gift of life, we thank You as well for the singular gift of liberty. Renew in all of our people the respect for religious freedom and fulfill that first, most cherished freedom. Make us truly free by tethering freedom to truth and ordering freedom to goodness. Help us live our freedom in faith, hope, and love - prudently and with justice - courageously, in a spirit of moderation.

It is obvious from the text that the Cardinal is purposely preaching a pro-life message to a party that has as part of its platform support for government funded abortion.  He also preaching against a health care program that would ration medical care to seniors.

Also, the Cardinal in his prayer at the DNC convention, is purposeful in his defense of marriage.  See how he changes the wording here:

At the RNC, the Cardinal says this- May we know the truth of Your Creation, respecting the laws of nature and of nature's God, and not seek to replace them with idols of our own making. Give us the good sense not to cast aside the boundaries of righteous living You first inscribed in our hearts before inscribing them on tablets of stone. May You mend our every flaw, confirming our soul in self-control, our liberty in law.

At the DNC, the Cardinal says this: We praise and thank You for giving us the life and liberty by which we can pursue happiness. Show us anew that happiness is found only in respecting the laws of nature and of nature's God. Empower us with Your grace so that we might resist the temptation to replace the moral law with idols of our own making, or to remake those institutions You've given us for the nurturing of life and community.

Also, the prayer at the DNC convention had alot of talk about religious freedom (more so than the one at the RNC).  So, I can't say that these are essentially the same prayers.  Did you actually read them?

I agree, they were very similar prayers, but seemed to be tailored to the specific audience.  I like that he prayed for the the president and vice president at  the RNC convention, and "Governor Mitt Romney and Congressman Paul Ryan, who seek to serve the common good by seeking public office." at the DNC convention.

For a visual comparison:

(One minor thing I notice is that he was introduced by House Speaker Boehner at the RNC, and at the DNC was introduced by a female voice, but no recognizable well known Democrat at the podium.)

The benediction at the RNC:   (begins at time 11:50)
http://www.c-span.org/RNC/Events/2012-Republican-National-Convention-Floor-Demonstration-Balloon-Drop-and-Closing/C3846076/

The benediction at the DNC:  (begins at time 2:00)
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/3873700

George Erdner

Quote from: peter_speckhard on September 07, 2012, 03:55:49 PM
Quote from: George Erdner on September 07, 2012, 03:42:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Gehlhausen on September 07, 2012, 10:37:37 AM
Quote from: George Erdner on September 06, 2012, 07:54:47 PM
It bothers me that something like this even needs to be discussed and voted on. There are some things that should not need to be discussed. It says something about any organization that has to discuss and debate and then vote on something as simple and fundamental as this. It makes me question whether the organization that has to debate and vote on something like this even has any core values at all.

My question with this is that it seems more with recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel than with the naming of God.

Yeah, the conservatives make hay on the God issue, but shouldn't the actual Jerusalem -- vs. Tel Aviv I guess -- thing be the focus?

Perhaps I am missing the whole thing.

Mike

The whole Jerusalem versus Tel Aviv thing has nothing to do with "Voting to keep 'God' in the political process", which is what this thread is about. Whatever city Israel designates as their capital is Israel's business. That's grist for a discussion, but not this discussion.
Nonsense. The two issues were proposed as one amendment to the platfom and it is impossible to distinguish the reaction of the crowd in terms of what they were objecting to. Certainly some Arab constituencies were enraged by the Jerusalem issue but probably welcomed the God inclusion. It was one event-- the vote of the DNC-- with all its related facets, such as the problematic voice vote, the nature of the wording, the reasons for the change in the first place and the source of the pressure to change it back included in the package. Unless you think we should about six or seven threads devoted to that five minute event at the convention, why not simply let those with something to say on the subject say it here?

I'll admit that I didn't have the stomach to sit through the Democrat Party convention. But, if they tied those two issues together into one motion, then that was a damn-fool stupid thing for them to do. And, I'm not saying that no one should say anything. I'm saying that I disagree with what they're saying.


peter_speckhard

Quote from: cssml on September 07, 2012, 04:20:40 PM

I agree, they were very similar prayers, but seemed to be tailored to the specific audience. 
This is the danger of public prayer. Prayer, if it is really prayer and not pious preachiness in disgiuse, is addressed to God. God is the audience. Everyone else is, at leat in theory, not being preached at, they're praying. As I said long ago in agreement with (I think) Russ Salzmann said in First Things, I don't appreciate being prayed at.

J. Thomas Shelley

#24
Quote from: peter_speckhard on September 07, 2012, 09:57:12 PM
I don't appreciate being prayed at.

Neither, apparently, did the hundreds who sent Tweets with the F-bomb concerning Cardinal Dolan in the hour or so following his prayer at the DNC.

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/09/06/cardinal-dolan-lectures-democrats-on-promoting-abortion/
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Richard Johnson

Quote from: cssml on September 07, 2012, 04:20:40 PM


I agree, they were very similar prayers, but seemed to be tailored to the specific audience. 

Gee, and here I thought that GOD was the "audience" of our prayers?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

Oh, Peter already said that. Well, great minds . . .
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles_Austin

The cardinal politicized and "partisanized " prayer. Shame on him and those who wrote his "prayers ".

George Erdner

Quote from: peter_speckhard on September 07, 2012, 09:57:12 PM
Quote from: cssml on September 07, 2012, 04:20:40 PM

I agree, they were very similar prayers, but seemed to be tailored to the specific audience. 
This is the danger of public prayer. Prayer, if it is really prayer and not pious preachiness in disgiuse, is addressed to God. God is the audience. Everyone else is, at leat in theory, not being preached at, they're praying. As I said long ago in agreement with (I think) Russ Salzmann said in First Things, I don't appreciate being prayed at.

When a Cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church finds himself in a position to twice bear witness to a huge audience about the sanctity of human life, I suspect God won't mind if the Cardinal bears that witness in the guise of a public prayer. I cannot be sure of the mind of God in a situation like this. No one can. But I would not be the least bit surprised if I were to discover that not only was God pleased that Cardinal Dolan said what he said, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some level of guidance from the Holy Spirit when Cardinal Dolan wrote out his "prayer" in advance.

There is one thing I am sure of. At both conventions, the words Cardinal Dolan spoke were probably the only words spoken that were actually written by the speaker, with the possible exception of Eastwood's "empty chair" speech.

Jeremy Loesch

The immediate social media reaction to Cardinal Dolan's DNC prayer is sad, but what should I expect from the twitter-universe?  I appreciate the link to the RNC prayer too, and I've watched both of them.  They were excellent.  And I appreciate that Cardinal Dolan allowed those several thousand people in both venues to listen to his conversation with God. 

Did his prayer in either place get a little preachy?  Perhaps, but who among us couldn't also face that same indictment?  And prayer might involve three parties- God, whom we are addressing, the pray-er, and the listener.  If the words hit a little too close to home, maybe there is something in my actions or attitudes that need examining.  I am not omniscient. 

Thanks again for the texts and video links of Cardinal Dolan's prayers.  I am grateful for his good Christian witness in both places.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

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