Voting to keep "God" in the political process

Started by Coach-Rev, September 06, 2012, 11:28:27 AM

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Coach-Rev

I found the events at the DNC fascinating last night - the outcry that "God" and "Jerusalem" had been removed, and now the uproar over the effort to "put Him back in" to the convention:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/democrats-reinstate-god-jerusalem-israel-capital-party-platform-223437220--election.html

Personally, I'm not sure what I find more disturbing:  that this was even made an issue in the first place, or that the chair definitely called it wrong - in my opinion it did not carry the required 2/3 majority vote.

My political commentary is now concluded.  Discuss.

J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: Coach-Rev on September 06, 2012, 11:28:27 AM
Personally, I'm not sure what I find more disturbing:  that this was even made an issue in the first place, or that the chair definitely called it wrong - in my opinion it did not carry the required 2/3 majority vote.

Benedict XVI is so correct, "Truth is not determined by majority vote."

What better example than last night's votes?

Each time the vote was called the "No" vote grew louder.  It sounded as though the vote began 60/40, then 55/45, finally 45/55.

"But they shouted all the louder...."

Majorities can err.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Team Hesse

Quote from: Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS on September 06, 2012, 02:26:55 PM

Benedict XVI is so correct, "Truth is not determined by majority vote."


That one is not original to him...

Lou

Marshall_Hahn

Quote from: Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS on September 06, 2012, 02:26:55 PM
Quote from: Coach-Rev on September 06, 2012, 11:28:27 AM
Personally, I'm not sure what I find more disturbing:  that this was even made an issue in the first place, or that the chair definitely called it wrong - in my opinion it did not carry the required 2/3 majority vote.

Benedict XVI is so correct, "Truth is not determined by majority vote."

What better example than last night's votes?

Each time the vote was called the "No" vote grew louder.  It sounded as though the vote began 60/40, then 55/45, finally 45/55.

"But they shouted all the louder...."

Majorities can err.
Of course, they weren't voting on what is true.  They were voting on what is to be contained in the Democratic platform.  Which, apparently, has little or nothing to do with the votes taken at their convention - and has perhaps but a fleeting association with "truth".

Marshall Hahn

J. Thomas Shelley

My recollection is that the wording was to add (restore) the word "God-given" before reference to citizens' rights.

Pretty much a foundational truth of American democracy....we derive our rights from God, not government.   Fought a revolution to defend that truth, I believe.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Timotheus Verinus

#5
Without political opinion. Whether it was in or out, I have no concern. It's politics. Whether they support prayer, Israel etc. is a matter of left hand kingdom opinion.

What has me very concerned, is the "ends justifies the means even if we have to lie," expression demonstrated by the chairman. He knew it failed. He was perplexed looking at the teleprompter script. He was about to do the right thing and say what he heard. The "handler" came over as ?parliamentarian? and instructed him. "Just lie. Say it passed. and let them then do whatever they decide."(if they have the guts?) Which of course anyone could have called for a count. He broke down obviously distressed and basically said, "yes ma'am, I will lie," and read the script from the teleprompter.

If some one will do that, there is no line, where basic honesty is present. There is a complete breakdown in character in that. They will lie if that is what it takes. Sad, very sad. In our training for POW challenges, the interrogator at this point would say, "I have you. your soul is mine..." and be right.

TV
TAALC Pastor

George Erdner

It bothers me that something like this even needs to be discussed and voted on. There are some things that should not need to be discussed. It says something about any organization that has to discuss and debate and then vote on something as simple and fundamental as this. It makes me question whether the organization that has to debate and vote on something like this even has any core values at all.

exegete77

Quote from: Timotheus Verinus on September 06, 2012, 06:37:42 PM

What has me very concerned, is the "ends justifies the means even if we have to lie," expression demonstrated by the chairman. He knew it failed. He was perplexed looking at the teleprompter script. He was about to do the right thing and say what he heard. The "handler" came over as ?parliamentarian? and instructed him. "Just lie. Say it passed. and let them then do whatever they decide."(if they have the guts?) Which of course anyone could have called for a count. He broke down obviously distressed and basically said, "yes ma'am, I will lie," and read the script from the teleprompter.

If some one will do that, there is no line, where basic honesty is present. There is a complete breakdown in character in that. They will lie if that is what it takes. Sad, very sad. In our training for POW challenges, the interrogator at this point would say, "I have you. your soul is mine..." and be right.

TV
And aren't we glad that he is the mayor of Los Angeles? His work at the convention is better than what he has done as mayor.
Rich Shields (TAALC)

Blessed to be a blessing; forgiven to be forgiving
believe, teach, and confess

cssml

Quote from: Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS on September 06, 2012, 05:26:10 PM
My recollection is that the wording was to add (restore) the word "God-given" before reference to citizens' rights.

Pretty much a foundational truth of American democracy....we derive our rights from God, not government.   Fought a revolution to defend that truth, I believe.

I think we take this for granted (the true source of our rights being from God), but unfortunately, I think many in our country do not anymore.  FWIW, cardinal Dolan gave the closing benediction at the DNC convention tonight, and he recognizes your point here in his prayer.  Here is the opening section (my emphasis):

With a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence," let us close this convention by praying for this land that we so cherish and love:

Let us Pray.

Almighty God, father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, revealed to us so powerfully in your Son, Jesus Christ, we thank you for showering your blessings upon this our beloved nation. Bless all here present, and all across this great land, who work hard for the day when a greater portion of your justice, and a more ample measure of your care for the poor and suffering, may prevail in these United States. Help us to see that a society's greatness is found above all in the respect it shows for the weakest and neediest among us.

We beseech you, almighty God to shed your grace on this noble experiment in ordered liberty, which began with the confident assertion of inalienable rights bestowed upon us by you: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Thus do we praise you for the gift of life. Grant us the courage to defend it, life, without which no other rights are secure. We ask your benediction on those waiting to be born, that they may be welcomed and protected. Strengthen our sick and our elders waiting to see your holy face at life's end, that they may be accompanied by true compassion and cherished with the dignity due those who are infirm and fragile. .....


Full story here:

  http://www.lifenews.com/2012/09/06/cardinal-dolan-lectures-democrats-on-promoting-abortion/

Charles_Austin

"Life news " wharever that is, says the cardinal's appearance before the Republicans was not a prayer but a "lecture to Democrats." Really? Everyone here on board with that?  ::)

Coach-Rev

#10
considering that his referenced appearance was before the dems, not the repubs,  I'll take that remark as your usual knee-jerk snark. 8)

James Gustafson

Cardinal Dolan gave the benediction at both conventions.  Maybe I've just not been paying attention, but is that common?  Anyway...

Cardinal Dolan at the Democrat convention:
    With a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, let us close this convention by praying for this land we so cherish and love. Let us pray. (makes sign of the cross)

    Almighty God, Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, revealed to us so powerfully in Your Son, Jesus Christ, we thank You for showering Your blessings on this, our beloved nation. Bless all here present and all across this great land who work hard for the day when a greater portion of Your justice and a more ample measure of Your care for the poor and suffering may prevail in these United States. Help us to see that a society's greatness is found above all in the respect it shows for the weakest and neediest among us.

    We beseech You, Almighty God, to shed Your grace on this noble experiment in ordered liberty which began with the confident assertion of inalienable rights bestowed upon us by You: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

    Thus do we praise You for the gift of life. Grant us the courage to defend it: life, without which, no others rights are secure. We ask Your benediction on those waiting to be born and that they may be welcomed and protected. Strengthen our sick and our elders, waiting to see Your holy face at life's end, that they may be accompanied by true compassion and cherished with the dignity due those who are infirm and fragile.

    We praise and thank You for the gift of liberty. May this land of the free never lack those brave enough to defend our basic freedoms. Renew in all our people a profound respect for religious liberty - the first, most cherished freedom - bequeathed upon us at our founding. May our liberty be in harmony with truth, freedom ordered in goodness and justice. Help us live our freedom in faith, hope, and love. Make us ever grateful for those who for over two centuries have given their lives in freedom's defense. We commend their noble souls to Your eternal care as even now we beg the protection of Your mighty arm upon our men and women in uniform.

    We praise and thank You for giving us the life and liberty by which we can pursue happiness. Show us anew that happiness is found only in respecting the laws of nature and of nature's God. Empower us with Your grace so that we might resist the temptation to replace the moral law with idols of our own making, or to remake those institutions You've given us for the nurturing of life and community.

    May we welcome those who yearn to breathe free and to pursue happiness in this land of freedom, adding their gifts to those whose families have lived here for centuries.

    We praise and thank You for the American genius of government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

    Oh God of wisdom, justice, and might, we ask Your guidance for those who govern us: President Barack Obama, Vice-President Joseph Biden, Congress, the Supreme Court, and on all those, including Governor Mitt Romney and Congressman Paul Ryan, who seek to serve the common good by seeking public office. Make them all worthy to serve You by serving our country. And help them remember that the only just government is the government that serves its citizens rather than itself.

    With Your grace, may all Americans choose wisely as we consider the future course of public policy.

    And finally, Lord, we beseech Your benediction on all of us who depart from here this evening, and on all those in every land who yearn to conduct their lives in freedom and justice.

    We beg You to remember, as we pledge to remember, those who are not free; those who suffer for freedom's cause; those who are poor, out of work, needy, sick, or alone; those who are persecuted for their religious convictions; those still ravaged by war.

    And most of all, God Almighty, we thank You for the great gift of our beloved country, for we are indeed one nation, under God, and in God we trust. So dear God, bless America - You who live and reign for ever and ever. Amen.


Cardinal Dolan at the Republican Convention:
   With firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, let us pray. (makes sign of the cross)

    Almighty God, Father of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus, we beg Your continued blessings on this sanctuary of freedom and on all those who proudly call America home. We ask Your benediction on those yet to be born and on those who are about to see You at the end of this life. Bless those families whose ancestors arrived on these shores generations ago, as well as those families who have come recently to build a better future while weaving their lives into the rich tapestry of America.

    We lift up to Your loving care those afflicted by the recent storms, drought, and fire. We ask for the grace to stand in solidarity with all those who suffer. May we strive to include Your tired, Your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free in the production and prosperity of a people so richly blessed.

    Oh God of wisdom, justice, and might, we ask Your guidance for those who govern us, and on those who would govern us, the President and Vice-President, the Congress, the Supreme Court, and on all those who seek the common good by seeking public office, especially Governor Romney and Congressman Ryan. Make them all worthy to serve You by serving our country. And help them remember that the only just government is the government that serves its citizens rather than itself.

    Almighty God, Who gives us the sacred and inalienable gift of life, we thank You as well for the singular gift of liberty. Renew in all of our people the respect for religious freedom and fulfill that first, most cherished freedom. Make us truly free by tethering freedom to truth and ordering freedom to goodness. Help us live our freedom in faith, hope, and love - prudently and with justice - courageously, in a spirit of moderation.

    Enkindle in our hearts a new sense of responsibility to freedom's cause, and make us ever grateful for all those who for more than two centuries have given their lives in freedom's defense. We commend their noble souls to Your eternal care as even now we beg Your mighty hand upon our beloved men and women in uniform.

    May we know the truth of Your Creation, respecting the laws of nature and of nature's God, and not seek to replace them with idols of our own making. Give us the good sense not to cast aside the boundaries of righteous living You first inscribed in our hearts before inscribing them on tablets of stone. May You mend our every flaw, confirming our soul in self-control, our liberty in law.

    We pray for all those who seek honest labor as we thank You for the Spirit of generosity to those in need with which You so richly bless this nation.

    We beseech Your blessing on all those who depart from here this evening, and on all those in every land who seek to conduct their lives in freedom.

    Most of all, Almighty God, we thank You for the great gift of our beloved country, for we are indeed one nation, under God, and in God we trust.

    Dear God, bless America - You who live and reign for ever and ever. Amen.

John_Hannah

#12
Quote from: James Gustafson on September 07, 2012, 08:02:35 AM

Cardinal Dolan gave the benediction at both conventions.  Maybe I've just not been paying attention, but is that common?


I think they always have a benediction, usually by an acquaintance of one of the candidates. The Republicans asked Dolan this year. My guess about that choice was made for two purposes --

ONE. avoid the Mormon issue and place Romney with the mainstream;

TWO. highlight the religious (not just Catholic) opposition to the HHS ruling.

Immediately upon accepting, Dolan was accused of favoritism. He denied that, of course, and offered to provide the same for the Democrats. They accepted and invited him.

I see that the two prayers are identical. We will not know how he votes (or how Catholics "should" vote).

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Mike Gehlhausen

Thanks for providing the text of the prayers.

I'm glad that Cardinal Dolan modified his prayer to make it clear that Jesus is divine God as well as man.

Republican:

Almighty God, Father of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus,

Democratic:

Almighty God, Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, revealed to us so powerfully in Your Son, Jesus Christ

Mike

Mike Gehlhausen

Quote from: George Erdner on September 06, 2012, 07:54:47 PM
It bothers me that something like this even needs to be discussed and voted on. There are some things that should not need to be discussed. It says something about any organization that has to discuss and debate and then vote on something as simple and fundamental as this. It makes me question whether the organization that has to debate and vote on something like this even has any core values at all.

My question with this is that it seems more with recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel than with the naming of God.

Yeah, the conservatives make hay on the God issue, but shouldn't the actual Jerusalem -- vs. Tel Aviv I guess -- thing be the focus?

Perhaps I am missing the whole thing.

Mike

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