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Abortion and Politics

Started by RogerMartim, August 27, 2012, 07:49:24 PM

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Mike Gehlhausen

Quote from: pearson on September 27, 2012, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on September 27, 2012, 08:39:04 AM

Similarly, it is the deliberate prevention of procreation, not the lack of capability to procreate that perverts sex.


Your entire argument here, Pr. Speckhard, is well spoken.  However, this particular sentence discourages one (of several) of the natural law arguments against homosexual sexual activity.  One of the arguments traditionally put forward by natural law is that homosexual sexual activity is morally wrong precisely because there is a "lack of capability to procreate" in such activity.  Unless one abandons this natural law argument, perhaps some nuance needs to be added to your claim above.

Tom Pearson

Are oral and anal sexual activity sinful within the case of a heterosexual marriage?  They too possess a lack of activity to procreate even though they may or may not be engaged in to deliberately prevent procreative activity.

Mike

Matt Hummel

#106
Quote from: Mike Gehlhausen on September 27, 2012, 10:19:21 AM
Are oral and anal sexual activity sinful within the case of a heterosexual marriage?  They too possess a lack of activity to procreate even though they may or may not be engaged in to deliberately prevent procreative activity.

Mike

I suppose it depends upon your tradition.  As to the former, as a lovely sidetrip on the way to the final destination, no.  As an alternative destination, yes.

As to the latter, yes.  I can recall in Seminary reading Nelson's Embodiment and his paen to going up the down ramp as the "embrace of the unlovable" or some such claptrap and therefore an act of grace.  He obviously wrote before Gaetan Dugas.  I was reading this just about the time that the world was dealing with fallout from a great deal of such "embracing."  It was the start of my process of realizing that having a Ph.D. in such matters really didn't count for much if you could be so patently dumb.

It is fascinating to read about the increase in popularity of heterosexual anal sex (in both directions- I offer into evidence "pegging").  If one were given to a conspiritorial frame of mind, one would wonder if this is part of the move to define deviency downwards so as to overcome the "ick" factor that is the last hold out in the debates regarding the alleged equivalency between heterosexual and homosexual couples.

But the question that I would still like to hear answered by folks such as Charles and Brian is, "Would the knowledge that a contraceptive was also an abortifacient preclude your endorsement of it?"  Or is all that talk about contraception ooas an alternative to abortion just that, talk?
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Coach-Rev

want a true-to-life perspective on Abortion?  Check out this new movie, just released.

Buckeye Deaconess

#108
Quote from: Coach-Rev on September 27, 2012, 11:11:51 AM
want a true-to-life perspective on Abortion?  Check out this new movie, just released.

This is a great movie.  Be sure to watch through the credits as the actress playing the birthmother shares her story of being post-abortive herself.  I think if more women like her were actually listened to in the ELCA and other abortion-supporting church bodies, pastors would understand the dire consequences of their inaction on this issue.  You're failing women when you don't speak up or simply point to a social statement that really says nothing to the issue.

And which Lutheran church body is accused of being anti-woman?   ::)

Mike Gehlhausen

Quote from: Buckeye Deaconess on September 27, 2012, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: Coach-Rev on September 27, 2012, 11:11:51 AM
want a true-to-life perspective on Abortion?  Check out this new movie, just released.

This is a great movie.  Be sure to watch through the credits as the actress playing the birthmother shares her story of being post-abortive herself.  I think if more women like her were actually listened to in the ELCA and other abortion-supporting church bodies, pastors would understand the dire consequences of their inaction on this issue.  You're failing women when you don't speak up or simply point to a social statement that really says nothing to the issue.

This is the kind of entertainment I wish Hollywood made more of. 

Mike

Buckeye Deaconess

Quote from: Mike Gehlhausen on September 27, 2012, 12:21:10 PM
This is the kind of entertainment I wish Hollywood made more of. 

Mike

Ha!  Fat chance . . . it is hard to be pro-life in Hollywood.  Patricia Heaton can attest to that.

Lookie there . . . she plays the mom in my favorite show right now, The Middle, and is a graduate of THE Ohio State University.  You learn something new every day.

Mike Gehlhausen

Quote from: Buckeye Deaconess on September 27, 2012, 12:26:08 PM
Quote from: Mike Gehlhausen on September 27, 2012, 12:21:10 PM
This is the kind of entertainment I wish Hollywood made more of. 

Mike

Ha!  Fat chance . . . it is hard to be pro-life in Hollywood.  Patricia Heaton can attest to that.

Lookie there . . . she plays the mom in my favorite show right now, The Middle, and is a graduate of THE Ohio State University.  You learn something new every day.

It's interesting that the comments on the article followed down the same path of discussing birth control which this thread did.

BTW, "The Middle" is also one of my favorites, and another example of the kind of entertainment I wish Hollywood made more of.   It is a refreshing difference from most sit-coms which seem to be in a contest to see how many sex jokes they can rattle off per minute.

Mike

Coach-Rev

Quote from: Buckeye Deaconess on September 27, 2012, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: Coach-Rev on September 27, 2012, 11:11:51 AM
want a true-to-life perspective on Abortion?  Check out this new movie, just released.

This is a great movie.  Be sure to watch through the credits as the actress playing the birthmother shares her story of being post-abortive herself.  I think if more women like her were actually listened to in the ELCA and other abortion-supporting church bodies, pastors would understand the dire consequences of their inaction on this issue.  You're failing women when you don't speak up or simply point to a social statement that really says nothing to the issue.

And which Lutheran church body is accused of being anti-woman?   ::)

Good point on the credits - I think her words there might have been the most poignant moment of the entire movie.

Come to think of it - good point all around...

Charles_Austin

Matt Hummel writes (re some means of expressing sexual intimacy):
As to the former, as a lovely sidetrip on the way to the final destination, no.  As an alternative destination, yes.

I comment:
Why? What is the "final destination"?

Matt Hummel

Quote from: Charles_Austin on September 27, 2012, 03:37:56 PM
Matt Hummel writes (re some means of expressing sexual intimacy):
As to the former, as a lovely sidetrip on the way to the final destination, no.  As an alternative destination, yes.

I comment:
Why? What is the "final destination"?

If I have to draw you a map, Charles, I pity you...

So anyway- what about the question- would the knowledge that a contraceptive acts as an abortifacient affect your thoughts on its use?  Since you are a champion of the belief that the more information regarding contraception, the fewer the abortions, I would be interested in your thought.
Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Charles_Austin

It was a serious question, Mr. Hummel, how about an answer?
You wrote (re some means of expressing sexual intimacy being wrong):
As to the former, as a lovely sidetrip on the way to the final destination, no.  As an alternative destination, yes.

I asked, Why? And "What is the final destination"?

No, you don't have to draw a map. But what is the "final destination" of sexual expression? And remember the issue here was whether sexuality is only or primarily for procreation and the matter under discussion was those forms of sexual intimacy that do not lead to procreation.
So let's say (for sake of argument) that the "final destination" is Duluth. And the couple decides that the "lovely sidetrip" (your words) to Mankato is enough; both are happy and tired and they decide not to go to Duluth that night.
Is that all right, or do they have to go to Duluth every time they get in the car? Is the purpose of the trip only or primarily to get to Duluth?

Donald_Kirchner

An 8 hour (RT) sidetrip to Mankato?! No wonder you're too tired.

No, perhaps the "lovely sidetrip" is to Gooseberry Falls.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Norman Teigen

Yes, Mankato.   Mankato is the site of the headquarters of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod.  A member of the ELS Doctrinal Committee is running for Congress in the First District.  This candidate, and his finance chairman, also a member of the ELS Doctrinal Committee,  have been successful in incorporating the candidate's political platform into the little synod's program.    Here is an update on the progress of Allen Quist's campaign as reported by the New Ulm Journal.  http://www.nujournal.com/page/content.detail/id/531419/Walz--Quist-clash-in-first-debate.html?nav=5009

Norman Teigen, Layman
Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Norman Teigen

Charles_Austin

O.k., make the lovely sidetrip to Gooseberry Falls. Is it all right to stop there and not go on to the "final destination" of Duluth?

Donald_Kirchner

#119
No, unless you're camping you'd have to go to Two Harbors to find a hotel. That's on the way to Duluth which is then only 22 miles away. Might as well go to where you planned to end up.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

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