The alleged Norwegian attacker

Started by Michael Slusser, July 23, 2011, 07:51:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

DCharlton

#135
A good analogy for our present circumstances might the situation in Europe in the 1930s.  It would be false to say that over a 500 year period prior to 1933, France and the English speaking countries were morally superior to Germany.  France had Napolean, England had the first concentration camps in the Boer War, the US had the Civil War.  Likewise, the Versailles Treaty was unjust in putting all the blame for the war or Germany and Austria-Hungary.  However, after 1933, the was a clear moral difference.  Too many in Britain and France allowed guilt over the injustice of Versailles to cloud their vision when it came to Hitler.  Hitler needed to be resisted without compromise.

In the same way, making sweeping claims about the moral superiority of Europe over the Middle East is wrong.  And yet we cannot let Western guilt over past (or even current) colonialism and imperialism cloud our vision when it comes to the violent, hate filled ideologies that have arisen in the last 50 years.  They have to be resisted without compromise, just as people like the Norwegian attacker cannot be tolerated. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

mariemeyer

Quote from: DCharlton on July 26, 2011, 12:03:39 PM
A good analogy for our present circumstances might the situation in Europe in the 1930.  It would be false to say that prior to 1933, France and the English speaking countries were morally superior to Germany.  The Versailles Treaty was unjust in putting all the blame for the war or Germany and Austria-Hungary.  However, after 1933, the was a clear moral difference.  Too many in Britain and France allowed guilt over the injustice of Versailles to cloud their vision when it came to Hitler.  Hitler needed to be resisted without compromise.

In the same way, making sweeping claims about the moral superiority of Europe over the Middle East is wrong.  And yet we cannot let Western guilt over past colonialism and imperialism cloud our vision when it comes to the violent, hate filled ideologies that have arisen in the last 50 years.  They have to be resisted without compromise.

Very thought provoking. 

Marie Meyer

Dan Fienen

Would it make it better to stop talking about the Christian Crusades of the Middle Ages and talk about the Christian Jihad that invaded and retook Jerusalem?  Or how about the Isalmic Crusades that destroyed the Christian Northern Africa and occupied Spain and invaded Europe?

We talk about the Crusades as having been evil (surely much evil was done) but is not the military Jihad that overran large chunks of the Mediterrinean world and that is being proclaimed today against Israel and West similar in many ways to the Crusades of old.  Why is the one so bad and the other OK?

Many in Islam speak of Jihad being a metaphor for the internal struggle to be a better Muslim.  Fine.  But that is not what was meant by Jihad when it destroyed Christian Northern Africa or occupied one of the early centers of Christianianity (Constantinople).  Nor is it that, I think, when Jihad is proclaimed to kill American troops, attack American facilities around the world, and to wage war against soldiers, civilians, men, women and children.

Christians have much to answer for in the evil done by those who bear the name and claim to act in the Name of Christ.  But so do Muslims.

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

DCharlton

#138
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 26, 2011, 12:18:56 PM
Would it make it better to stop talking about the Christian Crusades of the Middle Ages and talk about the Christian Jihad that invaded and retook Jerusalem?  Or how about the Isalmic Crusades that destroyed the Christian Northern Africa and occupied Spain and invaded Europe?

We talk about the Crusades as having been evil (surely much evil was done) but is not the military Jihad that overran large chunks of the Mediterrinean world and that is being proclaimed today against Israel and West similar in many ways to the Crusades of old.  Why is the one so bad and the other OK?

Many in Islam speak of Jihad being a metaphor for the internal struggle to be a better Muslim.  Fine.  But that is not what was meant by Jihad when it destroyed Christian Northern Africa or occupied one of the early centers of Christianianity (Constantinople).  Nor is it that, I think, when Jihad is proclaimed to kill American troops, attack American facilities around the world, and to wage war against soldiers, civilians, men, women and children.

Christians have much to answer for in the evil done by those who bear the name and claim to act in the Name of Christ.  But so do Muslims.

Dan

Who is "We"?  It's true that among intellectuals suffering from xenophilia there is a tendency to talk about the evil of the Crusades, while overlooking the Islam's wars of conquest.  Among the people in my parish, however, there is the opposite tendency: to discuss the evils of Islam in while mentioning only the moral and cultural achievements of the West. 

I for one am glad that the Franks defeated the Muslim invasion of Europe.  (Few of my people know that they might owe the wimpy and effiminate French a debt of thanks.)  I'm glad that the Christians in Spain drove out the Moors.  I'm sad that the Hagia Sophia is a Mosque.   I'm sad that only remnants remain of the Christian churches in Syria, Palestine, Asia Minor, Egypt, Mesopotamia and North Africa.

Furthermore, I believe that when they differ, Christianity is true and Islam is false.  I don't think that Europe can survive as a Muslim continent.  I believe that the basis for Western Civilization is Christianity, perhaps even Christendom.  I believe that whether it succumbs to paganism, atheism, or Islam, without Christianity, Western Civilization will cease to exist.

That doesn't mean we have to maintain an inaccurate and Triumphalist view of our own history, nor does it mean that we have to distort or demonize the history of Islam.    At its best, Christian thought and culture has been able to engage the best of pagan and Islamic culture with confidence, acknowledging what was true and refuting what was false.  In my opinion, it's loss of confidence that leads to both the self-deprecation and the self-aggrandizement that characterize our approach to Islam today.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

mariemeyer

I submit that the LCMS misionaries who lived and worked among Muslims, Henry Nau, Roland Miller, Luther Engelbrecht, Henry Otten, Carlton Riemer, Meinert Grumm...the list goes on, would resonate to what David Charlton writes.

During the years they and their families lived among Muslims love for their neighbors compelled them to be faithful witnesses to Christ.  At one time there was an LCMS mission publication, The Minaret, that encouraged the synod to continue mission work among Muslims in the Middle East and India.

Today, Pueblo maintains a Christian witness to Muslims in America.  These men and women thank God that we have an opportunity to witness to the many Muslims who now live among us.

Marie Meyer

George Erdner

Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 26, 2011, 12:18:56 PM
Christians have much to answer for in the evil done by those who bear the name and claim to act in the Name of Christ.  But so do Muslims.

Dan

I agree that some Christians have much to answer for, but only those Christians who were alive at the time the evil was done. I was born in 1951. I refuse to accept blame for actions that took place before my birth. There's enough things I'm guilty of that I need to answer for. I don't need to borrow the offenses of others to pad my list.

Daniel L. Gard

#141
Can anyone name a single country ruled by Muslims where you would choose to live?

PTMcCain


jpetty

Quote from: Daniel L. Gard on July 26, 2011, 01:43:16 PM
Can anyone name a single country ruled by Muslims where you would choose to live?

Indonesia wouldn't be bad.  Perhaps Morocco as well, mainly for the natural beauty of the place.  Otherwise, can't think of any.


Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Erdner on July 26, 2011, 01:34:07 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 26, 2011, 12:18:56 PM
Christians have much to answer for in the evil done by those who bear the name and claim to act in the Name of Christ.  But so do Muslims.

Dan

I agree that some Christians have much to answer for, but only those Christians who were alive at the time the evil was done. I was born in 1951. I refuse to accept blame for actions that took place before my birth. There's enough things I'm guilty of that I need to answer for. I don't need to borrow the offenses of others to pad my list.


So, if you were to join the KKK, you don't think that you should be criticized for the evils that organization committed in the past?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

LutherMan

Quote from: mariemeyer on July 26, 2011, 01:16:50 PM

Today, Pueblo maintains a Christian witness to Muslims in America.  These men and women thank God that we have an opportunity to witness to the many Muslims who now live among us.

Marie Meyer
Did you mean POBLO?
http://www.peopleofthebooklutheranoutreach.org/WP/

Daniel L. Gard

Quote from: LutherMan on July 26, 2011, 03:21:29 PM
Quote from: mariemeyer on July 26, 2011, 01:16:50 PM

Today, Pueblo maintains a Christian witness to Muslims in America.  These men and women thank God that we have an opportunity to witness to the many Muslims who now live among us.

Marie Meyer
Did you mean POBLO?
http://www.peopleofthebooklutheranoutreach.org/WP/

Concordia Theological Seminary Fort Wayne has trained pastors for POBLO for years. It is a great honor to continue to support these brothers as they reach out to Muslims and call them from their false religion to the living Christ.

LutherMan

Our Sunday Bible Study supports POBLO.  No one had ever heard of them until I brought them to attention during an annual vote on which mission to support.  We used to get updates at my parish in San Diego, I can remember a gypsy woman who was converted and told powerful stories of persecution she suffered from her own son and husband for following Christ...

TravisW

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 26, 2011, 02:39:58 PM
Quote from: George Erdner on July 26, 2011, 01:34:07 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 26, 2011, 12:18:56 PM
Christians have much to answer for in the evil done by those who bear the name and claim to act in the Name of Christ.  But so do Muslims.

Dan

I agree that some Christians have much to answer for, but only those Christians who were alive at the time the evil was done. I was born in 1951. I refuse to accept blame for actions that took place before my birth. There's enough things I'm guilty of that I need to answer for. I don't need to borrow the offenses of others to pad my list.


So, if you were to join the KKK, you don't think that you should be criticized for the evils that organization committed in the past?

So the Church is like the KKK? 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk