Women's Ordination in the LCMS

Started by Buckeye Deaconess, June 10, 2011, 03:02:18 PM

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TravisW

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2011, 12:10:55 AM
Quote from: TravisW on July 19, 2011, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 11:45:56 PM
Quote from: Larry Smith on July 18, 2011, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 06:07:12 PM

If one is a heretic, they will not meet our requirements for ordination. They will not be ordained. That is what I assume.

Did the HERetics at HerChurch somehow meet the requirements for ordination, or did they become HERetics after ordination?


No one with any authority to do so have declared them heretics.

I did.


And how did your declaration affect the whole church, or even the ELCA?

How much did the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus Christ affect the Roman Empire before 50 AD? 

SmithL

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 11:45:56 PM
Quote from: Larry Smith on July 18, 2011, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 06:07:12 PM
If one is a heretic, they will not meet our requirements for ordination. They will not be ordained. That is what I assume.

Did the HERetics at HerChurch somehow meet the requirements for ordination, or did they become HERetics after ordination?

No one with any authority to do so have declared them heretics.

That only means that they are accepting of the heresy.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Erdner on July 19, 2011, 12:26:11 AM
Quote from: TravisW on July 19, 2011, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 11:45:56 PM
Quote from: Larry Smith on July 18, 2011, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 06:07:12 PM

If one is a heretic, they will not meet our requirements for ordination. They will not be ordained. That is what I assume.

Did the HERetics at HerChurch somehow meet the requirements for ordination, or did they become HERetics after ordination?


No one with any authority to do so have declared them heretics.

I did.

How much authority does it take to recognize such an obvious truth?


A vote of an ecumenical council to declare a teaching heretical.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: TravisW on July 19, 2011, 12:30:03 AM
How much did the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus Christ affect the Roman Empire before 50 AD?


Quite negatively -- for almost 300 years.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Larry Smith on July 19, 2011, 12:55:10 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 11:45:56 PM
Quote from: Larry Smith on July 18, 2011, 09:06:51 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2011, 06:07:12 PM
If one is a heretic, they will not meet our requirements for ordination. They will not be ordained. That is what I assume.

Did the HERetics at HerChurch somehow meet the requirements for ordination, or did they become HERetics after ordination?

No one with any authority to do so have declared them heretics.

That only means that they are accepting of the heresy.


Or maybe the people much closer to the situation, who have worshiped with that congregation, who personally know the pastor and staff, come to a different conclusion than you.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Charles_Austin

Larry Smith (or anyone else) can make all the declarations of "heretic" that they wish to make; but if they do so on their own, it is simply their opinion. They can even declare - as one frequent poster here does - again and again that a whole denomination has "left the Christian faith."
But that don't make it so.
The authorities of the Roman Catholic Church, the ELCA's ecumenical partners, the eastern Orthodox churches with whom we are in dialogue do not declare that the ELCA has left the Christian faith or is heretical or apostate. Had they done so, those dialogues would not be continuing.
For that matter, neither has the LCMS made the kind of declarations about the ELCA that are heard in ALPB precincts from one or two people.
That is why such declarations here are individualistic and sectarian in the worst sense of that word.

David Garner

Quote from: Charles_Austin on July 19, 2011, 06:05:44 AM
The authorities of the Roman Catholic Church, the ELCA's ecumenical partners, the eastern Orthodox churches with whom we are in dialogue do not declare that the ELCA has left the Christian faith or is heretical or apostate. Had they done so, those dialogues would not be continuing.

That's a fair point.  Another fair point is that neither have any of those traditions in dialogue with the ELCA accepted its position on ordination of women, nor have they accepted the ELCA into communion with them.  And as you and everyone else here well knows, ordination of women is a key part of why that is.

I didn't see anyone in this thread state the ELCA was heretical or apostate, though I am aware there are those who so claim.  But I will readily state that HerChurch is heretical, and while I cannot speak for my Church, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if every parish in the ELCA was so arranged, ecumenical dialogue with the Orthodox and the Catholics would end right quick.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

George Erdner

#1102
Quote from: David Garner on July 19, 2011, 10:21:40 AM
Quote from: Charles_Austin on July 19, 2011, 06:05:44 AM
The authorities of the Roman Catholic Church, the ELCA's ecumenical partners, the eastern Orthodox churches with whom we are in dialogue do not declare that the ELCA has left the Christian faith or is heretical or apostate. Had they done so, those dialogues would not be continuing.

That's a fair point.  Another fair point is that neither have any of those traditions in dialogue with the ELCA accepted its position on ordination of women, nor have they accepted the ELCA into communion with them.  And as you and everyone else here well knows, ordination of women is a key part of why that is.

I didn't see anyone in this thread state the ELCA was heretical or apostate, though I am aware there are those who so claim.  But I will readily state that HerChurch is heretical, and while I cannot speak for my Church, I'd bet dollars to donuts that if every parish in the ELCA was so arranged, ecumenical dialogue with the Orthodox and the Catholics would end right quick.

I'd also note that every time some council or other authoritative body officially decreed some teaching heretical, that teaching was declared heretical retroactively back to when it was first taught. Teachings aren't good and proper and honest and true and accurate up until the moment that some authoritative body declares them heretical. They are heretical from the moment that they are first uttered. The authoritative body simply recognizes or acknowledges that they are, and have always been, heretical.

It's rather like coming across an accident victim who is not breathing, whose body is broken and torn, and with no sign of life evident. It takes the official statement of a qualified medical professional to officially pronounce that person dead, but anyone who sees the lifeless corpse can see and recognize that it is dead.

I suppose there are some who would argue that a broken and torn body is still alive until a medical doctor officially pronounces it dead, but those who would make that argument are wrong.

David Garner

Quote from: George Erdner on July 19, 2011, 10:43:54 AM
I'd also note that every time some council or other authoritative body officially decreed some teaching heretical, that teaching was declared heretical retroactively back to when it was first taught. Teachings aren't good and proper and honest and true and accurate up until the moment that some authoritative body declares them heretical. They are heretical from the moment that they are first uttered. The authoritative body simply recognizes or acknowledges that they are, and have always been, heretical.

And, it should be said, while no ecumenical council has ever ruled on the issue directly (though at least two have touched on it tangentially), this is only because the Churches who would actually join to form an ecumenical council if one were held today have never ordained women.

What is not an issue need not be made an issue.  If you want to know what an ecumenical council would do about ordaining women, look at what the Roman See and the various Sees that comprise the Eastern Church actually do about ordaining women.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

TravisW

My point is this:  I have admittedly limited authority, but am not completely lacking in authority.  The individual has authority over those placed under their authority.  In relation to HerChurch, I have authority to keep my family from attending there.  I believe that in regard to Ebenezer (Herchurch), my opinion is in concord with that of the overwhelming majority of the rest of the Church Catholic (which also has limited temporal authority over what is done at Ebenezer).

When we start getting into the notion of ordaining women, I think the LCMS is right to try and distinguish between whether such a thing is a postmodern fad. 




Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: TravisW on July 19, 2011, 11:29:54 AM
When we start getting into the notion of ordaining women, I think the LCMS is right to try and distinguish between whether such a thing is a postmodern fad.


Of course we can also wonder if the subordination of women and the refusal to ordain them was a first century fad that grew into a tradition.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

David Garner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2011, 12:57:44 PMOf course we can also wonder if the subordination of women and the refusal to ordain them was a first century fad that grew into a tradition.

The problem with that view is it means the Church was heretical from the beginning.  And if that's the case, upon what foundation is the Church laid to begin with?

Is she the pillar and ground of the truth, but just not as to that particular issue?

It's one thing, I think, to say the Church has strayed from her apostolic tradition.  It's quite another to say the apostolic tradition itself is wrong.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: David Garner on July 19, 2011, 01:22:20 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2011, 12:57:44 PMOf course we can also wonder if the subordination of women and the refusal to ordain them was a first century fad that grew into a tradition.

The problem with that view is it means the Church was heretical from the beginning.  And if that's the case, upon what foundation is the Church laid to begin with?


No, it means that the verses about the silence of women were just as much culturally conditioned as the verses about head coverings and length of hair. They were important at that time in the church's life, but are either ignored or interpreted as an illustration, rather than a literal command for the church today.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

David Garner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2011, 01:35:36 PMNo, it means that the verses about the silence of women were just as much culturally conditioned as the verses about head coverings and length of hair. They were important at that time in the church's life, but are either ignored or interpreted as an illustration, rather than a literal command for the church today.

As I said before, it's one thing to say the Church has strayed from her apostolic tradition, but it's quite another to say the apostolic tradition itself is wrong. 

For the record, some women still cover their hair in the Orthodox Church, and depending on the parish, it can be quite a lot of them.  Here is one of my favorite photos:

http://www.russian-victories.ru/little_russian_girl_orthodox.jpg

I know that comes as a bit of a shock to some folks who just assume that's a quaint old practice that nobody actually follows anymore.  It is also a practice I support.  But lets assume that, too, is "culturally conditioned."  Is that a sufficient reason to abolish the practice?
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Buckeye Deaconess

Quote from: David Garner on July 19, 2011, 01:49:05 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 19, 2011, 01:35:36 PMNo, it means that the verses about the silence of women were just as much culturally conditioned as the verses about head coverings and length of hair. They were important at that time in the church's life, but are either ignored or interpreted as an illustration, rather than a literal command for the church today.

As I said before, it's one thing to say the Church has strayed from her apostolic tradition, but it's quite another to say the apostolic tradition itself is wrong. 

For the record, some women still cover their hair in the Orthodox Church, and depending on the parish, it can be quite a lot of them.  Here is one of my favorite photos:

http://www.russian-victories.ru/little_russian_girl_orthodox.jpg

I know that comes as a bit of a shock to some folks who just assume that's a quaint old practice that nobody actually follows anymore.  It is also a practice I support.  But lets assume that, too, is "culturally conditioned."  Is that a sufficient reason to abolish the practice?

Besides the Biblical reason, it would sure help me not ever show up to church at the last minute again given what it takes for the four girls in my house to do our hair.  That need would be eliminated.  ;D :D

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