The Virus Keeps Spreading

Started by Terry W Culler, October 06, 2010, 08:51:56 AM

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Dadoo

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on October 06, 2010, 02:21:35 PM
Quote from: Karl Hess on October 06, 2010, 12:37:47 PM
I don't think Satan wins if the faithful leave.  The churches that renounce Christianity will quickly become empty shells and die off over time.  But if the faithful remain in fellowship with apostates or heretics when it is clear there will be no repentance, their witness is compromised and their ability to resist Satan's lies is eroded.

Those faithful servants who wanted to remove the "weeds" from the fields, would also have destroyed the "wheat". Could it be that by separating themselves from the so-called "apostates or heretics" in the church, the "faithful" are, in fact, destroying the whole church?

But Brian, that was at a time of humanity when the only recourse against weeds was to manually pull them out which endangered the desired crop plants. Had Jesus envisioned that one day we would be able to create Round Up Ready corn and beans he would most certainly have approved of the servants desire to rid the field of weeds. Today the Spirit is doing an new thing and most certainly approves of Round Up Ready Christians who can withstand the heriticide therefore leaving a weedless church.
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: olarmy02 on October 06, 2010, 02:38:12 PM
*&%^# Pastor Stoffregen!  You made me spray Pepsi through my nose and onto my keyboard.  My sinuses are burning.  I did need that laugh though, thank you...for the keyboard clean-up not so much.


Sometimes Brian chooses to ignore Jesus' words; other times he chooses to ignore St. Paul's.  Of course, that's when he's not pitting Jesus or Paul against themselves...
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Bergs

Quote from: Dadoo on October 06, 2010, 07:04:54 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on October 06, 2010, 02:21:35 PM
Quote from: Karl Hess on October 06, 2010, 12:37:47 PM
I don't think Satan wins if the faithful leave.  The churches that renounce Christianity will quickly become empty shells and die off over time.  But if the faithful remain in fellowship with apostates or heretics when it is clear there will be no repentance, their witness is compromised and their ability to resist Satan's lies is eroded.

Those faithful servants who wanted to remove the "weeds" from the fields, would also have destroyed the "wheat". Could it be that by separating themselves from the so-called "apostates or heretics" in the church, the "faithful" are, in fact, destroying the whole church?

But Brian, that was at a time of humanity when the only recourse against weeds was to manually pull them out which endangered the desired crop plants. Had Jesus envisioned that one day we would be able to create Round Up Ready corn and beans he would most certainly have approved of the servants desire to rid the field of weeds. Today the Spirit is doing an new thing and most certainly approves of Round Up Ready Christians who can withstand the heriticide therefore leaving a weedless church.

Exactly.  In Fact...We need a new concept of "Rounded Up Conscience" in order to justify this new thing that God has done.  ::)
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN
But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

J. Thomas Shelley

Bringing us back to the topic on hand:

Please keep in mind that the Church of the Bretheren (COB) is hardly homogenous (I know, bad choice of words) in its practice in many aspects of church life.

In my region of Pennsylvania COB congregations are both numerous and diverse.   Some Call and pay their clergy, others still choose unpaid clergy by lot.  Some clergy are seminary educated, some are simply those to whom the lot falls.  Some are women, in the more conservative rural congregations that would be unthinkable.

The Church of the Bretheren--on the national level-- has not required re-Baptism of those transfering from other Christian traditions for nearly forty years; unless those entering desire to receive believers' Baptism.  Again, that is not the practice in some of the smaller and rural congregations.  They might also insist that the Baptism take place with running nartural water, even in the winter.  And in those congregations the wearing of white fishnet prayer caps by adult women (at all times) is still very common.,

The smaller rural congregations also practice close Communion as found in the LCMS.  They will not receive from a Lutheran altar; and Lutherans are likewise unable to receive in their assemblies.

In my County, I could foresee one of the two largerest COB congregations with M.Div, salaried, and female clergy possibly calling a homosexual.   That would severely strain an already greatly impaired relationship with the smaller, rural COB congregations.

This all sounds quite familiar, not?

Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Cnehring on October 06, 2010, 06:11:54 PM
Perhaps those words of the Bible of separating yourself from those refusing to repent might be a bit more practical in this matter? I do recall Paul having some pretty harsh words and advice for the congregations to expel those who refuse, in the hope that they repent and stop their sin. 

Yes, Paul did talk about expelling the one. However, as far as I know, the ELCA has not expelled any of the congregations who have a more traditional view.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on October 06, 2010, 07:19:18 PM
Quote from: olarmy02 on October 06, 2010, 02:38:12 PM
*&%^# Pastor Stoffregen!  You made me spray Pepsi through my nose and onto my keyboard.  My sinuses are burning.  I did need that laugh though, thank you...for the keyboard clean-up not so much.


Sometimes Brian chooses to ignore Jesus' words; other times he chooses to ignore St. Paul's.  Of course, that's when he's not pitting Jesus or Paul against themselves...

Perhaps so, but I can't be accused of ignoring the Bible :)
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

George Erdner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on October 06, 2010, 09:38:28 PM
Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on October 06, 2010, 07:19:18 PM
Quote from: olarmy02 on October 06, 2010, 02:38:12 PM
*&%^# Pastor Stoffregen!  You made me spray Pepsi through my nose and onto my keyboard.  My sinuses are burning.  I did need that laugh though, thank you...for the keyboard clean-up not so much.


Sometimes Brian chooses to ignore Jesus' words; other times he chooses to ignore St. Paul's.  Of course, that's when he's not pitting Jesus or Paul against themselves...

Perhaps so, but I can't be accused of ignoring the Bible :)

That's true. You could be accused of twisting it, changing it, perverting it, misusing it, and several other verbs that would get me admonished if not banished, but never of ignoring it.

G.Edward

Quote from: The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on October 06, 2010, 07:19:18 PM
Quote from: olarmy02 on October 06, 2010, 02:38:12 PM
*&%^# Pastor Stoffregen!  You made me spray Pepsi through my nose and onto my keyboard.  My sinuses are burning.  I did need that laugh though, thank you...for the keyboard clean-up not so much.


Sometimes Brian chooses to ignore Jesus' words; other times he chooses to ignore St. Paul's.  Of course, that's when he's not pitting Jesus or Paul against themselves...

Double deconstruction is such a beautiful thing!

Terry W Culler

Pr. Shelley is correct that there is no more uniformity among CoB congregations than among Lutherans and some would, no doubt, accept a homosexual pastor.  Most would not.  I remember asking my friend to describe the CoB to me and he said it was a denomination with liberal leaders, conservative pastors and very conservative laity.  But obviously there are some who would go a revisionist direction.

As to George's question--yes the Church might be dented a bit from time to time.  But just like the body shop down the street can take the dents out of my vehicle, so will Jesus remove the dents from His Body, the Church.  Semper Reformanda is a good position to hold since sin and error are constantly oozing through the cracks into the Church and must be battled in each generation.  The Church has defeated Arianism, Gnosticism, Rationalism, Legalism, Liberalism, and whole bunch of other isms,  and it is now defeating Revisionism.   But the battle is always on until our Lord comes again in glory and the Church rises to meet HIm in the air.  The Truth will win out--I know because I looked in the back of the Book---Jesus wins.
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

LutherMan

Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on October 07, 2010, 07:52:03 AM
As to George's question--yes the Church might be dented a bit from time to time.  But just like the body shop down the street can take the dents out of my vehicle, so will Jesus remove the dents from His Body, the Church.  Semper Reformanda is a good position to hold since sin and error are constantly oozing through the cracks into the Church and must be battled in each generation.  The Church has defeated Arianism, Gnosticism, Rationalism, Legalism, Liberalism, and whole bunch of other isms,  and it is now defeating Revisionism.   But the battle is always on until our Lord comes again in glory and the Church rises to meet HIm in the air.  The Truth will win out--I know because I looked in the back of the Book---Jesus wins.
Beautiful!
:)

George Erdner

Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on October 07, 2010, 07:52:03 AM
As to George's question--yes the Church might be dented a bit from time to time.  But just like the body shop down the street can take the dents out of my vehicle, so will Jesus remove the dents from His Body, the Church.  Semper Reformanda is a good position to hold since sin and error are constantly oozing through the cracks into the Church and must be battled in each generation.  The Church has defeated Arianism, Gnosticism, Rationalism, Legalism, Liberalism, and whole bunch of other isms,  and it is now defeating Revisionism.   But the battle is always on until our Lord comes again in glory and the Church rises to meet HIm in the air.  The Truth will win out--I know because I looked in the back of the Book---Jesus wins.

Does that mean we needn't pay any attention to what God might be calling us to do in terms of serving Him in defeating Revisionism because He's going to win anyway? Does the certainty of the resurrection remove from us any need to consider our actions carefully? Does Jesus remove those dents by some means other than inspiring His people to take correct action? If we must battle in each generation, is our battling something we must carefully plan, using the intelligence God gave us to understand what He wants us to do? Or are the battles you refer to something God does that we can simply sit back and watch as spectators?

Terry W Culler

George, please don't misread what I say.  Of course we are to continue to do our best and struggle for what is right.  Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that if we don't accomplish some specific thing that God's will can be thwarted.  I once heard James Dobson say that if people didn't vote the right way the Church could be destroyed.  Now he knew better than that, but he was trying to frighten people into some specific action.  All I'm saying is that the people of God don't need to fear anything--it is all in the hands of the living God and no power on earth can defeat Him.
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

George Erdner

Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on October 07, 2010, 12:57:35 PM
George, please don't misread what I say.  Of course we are to continue to do our best and struggle for what is right.  Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that if we don't accomplish some specific thing that God's will can be thwarted.  I once heard James Dobson say that if people didn't vote the right way the Church could be destroyed.  Now he knew better than that, but he was trying to frighten people into some specific action.  All I'm saying is that the people of God don't need to fear anything--it is all in the hands of the living God and no power on earth can defeat Him.

I realize that what you are saying is limited to that last sentence. But that last sentence carries with it something of a paradox. If we don't believe that we need to accomplish what God wants us to accomplish, things will still work out the way God wants them to anyway, then why bother doing anything at all? Or at least, why bother trying to discern the best thing to do instead of just spinning our wheels engaged in random acts of pointless busywork?

Or could it mean that even though that what God wills to be done will be done eventually, in the fullness of time, if we exercise diligence and discernment in doing God's will, then it will come to pass sooner rather than later?

I mean, I need a little help understanding all this. If there's no reason to concern ourselves with choosing the right action over the wrong action, I can save myself a great deal of effort and just ignore everything, do whatever the hell I please, and assume that regardless or what any of us do, it'll all work out OK in the end. I can resign my position on my church council (and not have to worry about going to meetings) and can just show up Sunday mornings and do nothing else church-related the rest of the week.

Terry W Culler

Ah George, you ask weighty and even unanswerable questions.  Here are my thoughts--and that's all they are.  History is the unfolding of the eternal plan of God.  We are the actors in that plan.  While we have a certain amount of free will with respect to those things not related to our salvation, we are living out what has been eternally set.  If not, then we must have a God who not only fails to direct His creation, but indeed a God who fails to even know everything before it happens.  That's not God.  Jonathan Edwards dealt with this problem by positing that we live out the plan but for us it is as if we were entirely free actors.   That seems plausible to me.  However it may be, I find comfort in the idea that God is in charge and we are not.  As to why we should act in one way and not another--well because Christ died for us and to behave otherwise would be to count that for little or nothing at all.
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

pbnorth3

Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on October 07, 2010, 03:48:36 PM
Ah George, you ask weighty and even unanswerable questions.  Here are my thoughts--and that's all they are.  History is the unfolding of the eternal plan of God.  We are the actors in that plan.  While we have a certain amount of free will with respect to those things not related to our salvation, we are living out what has been eternally set.  If not, then we must have a God who not only fails to direct His creation, but indeed a God who fails to even know everything before it happens.  That's not God.  Jonathan Edwards dealt with this problem by positing that we live out the plan but for us it is as if we were entirely free actors.   That seems plausible to me.  However it may be, I find comfort in the idea that God is in charge and we are not.  As to why we should act in one way and not another--well because Christ died for us and to behave otherwise would be to count that for little or nothing at all.

Yes, I think this is correct. You must have been at one of our bible studies or planted a spie Terry, cause this is what we talked about quite a bit (working through the Letter to the Hebrews).

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

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