Ecumenism at the LWF Assembly

Started by Charles_Austin, July 21, 2010, 07:53:17 PM

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Charles_Austin

Stories and comments on the ecumenical relations of Lutherans

Charles_Austin


A Catholic Lutheran

Just read the "Bishop Hanson on the desire for communion" article...

All I can say is "WOW!"  There is one man who has NO sense of reality.  I'm really serious here.  I think PB Hanson may be suffering from some sort of delusion.

Does he really think that he has made any sort of positive contribution to ecumenism?  His own sect is disintegrating, any sense of "communion" in the ELCA breaking left and right, and he's going to continue whining about the lack of Communion between Rome and the ELCA?

Truly, truly amazing.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Charles_Austin

Pastor Kliner writes:
Just read the "Bishop Hanson on the desire for communion" article...
All I can say is "WOW!"  There is one man who has NO sense of reality.  I'm really serious here.  I think PB Hanson may be suffering from some sort of delusion.
I comment:
We can always enjoy long-distance psychoanalysis. Pastor Kliner posted only a very few minutes after he read the article, so I hope we can grant him some more time to think things over.

Pastor Kliner:
Does he really think that he has made any sort of positive contribution to ecumenism?
Me:
Well, Cardinal Kaspar, the late Pope John Paul II and the current Pope Benedict XVI think he has.

Pastor Kliner:
His own sect is disintegrating, any sense of "communion" in the ELCA breaking left and right, and he's going to continue whining about the lack of Communion between Rome and the ELCA?
Me:
Sect? Not the normal use of that term, but it's your choice to insult several million people.
"Breaking left and right"? More unverified apocalyptic predictions.
"Whining"? I cannot imagine where, in any of the words Bishop Hanson used, you would find justification in the use of that term. It applies the most uncharitable construction on the comments and is - in my opinion - a slander against your own Presiding Bishop. (You are still with us, right?)
Agree. Disagree. Criticize if you wish. But can we avoid these instant attacks? Just a few minutes after the posting goes up, there is Pastor Kliner with guns blazing.

A Catholic Lutheran

Well let me ask the painfully obvious questions then:

-Are the ELCA and the Roman Catholic Church closer to sharing the Eucharist now than we were before PB took the reigns at the ELCA?
  Answer: We are further away, though the PB can only be blamed for some of this.  But clearly the relationship between the ELCA and the RCC has been strained by the actions of the ELCA in the ten years after JDDJ was ratified, and the PB's leadership is a key part of that.  I can cite examples where the PB's reactions, in specific, have increased the divergence between the ELCA and the RCC, not helping things.

-Has the ELCA come closer to it's fellow Lutheran bodies or have we diverged since Hanson became the PB and the President of the LWF?
   Answer: Clearly we are further from even our fellow Lutherans, both inside and outside the LWF.  There was that uncomfortable incident where Bp. Obare was ejected from the LWF, which will not be forgotten any time soon.  Our relationships with the LCMS are at their lowest point in memory, even (by my reckoning) at a lower level than 1972.

-Has the ELCA come closer in her internal relationships in the 8 years that Mark Hanson has been the PB?
   Answer: Clearly the answer has to be a resounding "NO" since the denomination is in the process of disintegrating and there is no real proposal out there for a re-integration.

Minnesota nice aside, I can find no proof to back up the idea that PB Hanson has done anything to further the cause of ecumenism.  Yet he has been consistent on calling on others to commune with us throughout his tenure, and then complaining when they don't.  This isn't "long distance psycho-analysis."  It's a sober assessment of the situation.  The PB's words are not rooted in reality.

You can disagree with me.  But as I survey the ecumenical situation, I can find NO grounds to hope for improvement nor call for Rome nor the Orthodox to push open the door when we (of the ELCA) refuse over and over again to try and close the distance with them.

And if that's guns-a-blazing, then so be it.  I'm sick of playing nice when there's so much BS in the air.

Pax Christi;
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Charles_Austin

Pastor Kliner writes:
Are the ELCA and the Roman Catholic Church closer to sharing the Eucharist now than we were before PB took the reigns at the ELCA?
I answer:
The head of the Vatican's unity office says we are. And he praises Presiding Bishop Hanson for his ecumenical efforts. And he praises the joint document on justification as a "milestone" in ecumenical history and believes we have made progress since then.
So take your pick. Believ Pastor Kliner or the Vatican.

Pastor Kliner writes:
Has the ELCA come closer to it's fellow Lutheran bodies or have we diverged since Hanson became the PB and the President of the LWF?
Answer: Clearly we are further from even our fellow Lutherans, both inside and outside the LWF.  There was that uncomfortable incident where Bp. Obare was ejected from the LWF, which will not be forgotten any time soon.  Our relationships with the LCMS are at their lowest point in memory, even (by my reckoning) at a lower level than 1972.
I note.
It wasn't bishop Hanson who removed Bishop Obare from an office in the LWF (he was not "ejected from the LWF,"). It was an action of the LWF as represented by its council. Based on reactions here at the Assembly, Bishop Hanson is quite widely admired and loved.
We are not closer to the LC-MS, but we were moving away from them long before Bishop Hanson was elected and re-elected.


olarmy02

Quote from: Charles_Austin on July 22, 2010, 03:45:18 PM
Pastor Kliner writes:
Are the ELCA and the Roman Catholic Church closer to sharing the Eucharist now than we were before PB took the reigns at the ELCA?
I answer:
The head of the Vatican's unity office says we are. And he praises Presiding Bishop Hanson for his ecumenical efforts. And he praises the joint document on justification as a "milestone" in ecumenical history and believes we have made progress since then.So take your pick. Believ Pastor Kliner or the Vatican.

Pastor Kliner writes:
Has the ELCA come closer to it's fellow Lutheran bodies or have we diverged since Hanson became the PB and the President of the LWF?
Answer: Clearly we are further from even our fellow Lutherans, both inside and outside the LWF.  There was that uncomfortable incident where Bp. Obare was ejected from the LWF, which will not be forgotten any time soon.  Our relationships with the LCMS are at their lowest point in memory, even (by my reckoning) at a lower level than 1972.
I note.
It wasn't bishop Hanson who removed Bishop Obare from an office in the LWF (he was not "ejected from the LWF,"). It was an action of the LWF as represented by its council. Based on reactions here at the Assembly, Bishop Hanson is quite widely admired and loved.
We are not closer to the LC-MS, but we were moving away from them long before Bishop Hanson was elected and re-elected.



Do you have a link to or reference for this?  I actually would like to read the article or transcript.  Thanks in advance.

ptmccain

The LWF is happy to tolerate, even encourage and support, openly false-teaching theologians and pastors, church bodies that ordain and sanction homosexuality, pay for such practices to be advanced into other church bodies, but it could not tolerate a Lutheran bishop discharging his office. Why? Because he had the audacity to ordain men whose own bishops have sunk into such utter apostasy that there was no provision for their ordination.

That's "ecumenism" LWF style.

God bless faithful bishops like Walter Obare. The LWF actually did him a favor.


Charles_Austin

Bishop Obare went into a country not his own, into a church not his own, in an effort to ordain bishops for parishes in a church for which he had no authority to do so. Now it serves no purpose here to rehash that.
Oh, wait, it does serve a purpose. Pastor McCain's purpose.
I am close to shutting down this thread completely.

olarmy02

Quote from: Charles_Austin on July 22, 2010, 03:59:08 PM
http://www.lwf-assembly.org/experience/lwi-assembly-news/news-detail/article/415/


Thank you.  I don't see how Cardinal Kasper's speech leads one to think the ELCA is closer to sharing the Eucharist with the RCC.  It wasn't mentioned.  The bread sharing seemed to be in reference to actually feeding the hungry:

"But the ecumenical agenda is still unfinished. "We have every reason to continue and even to intensify and deepen our dialogues," the Cardinal said. Referring to the Assembly theme, "Give Us Today Our Daily Bread," he said that the millions of people who lack daily bread are "our common responsibility," and that Lutherans and Roman Catholics "can no longer afford our differences" when it comes to helping people in need."

It appears as though ecumincal projects are closer such as sharing bread with the hungry, and this is good.  However I didn't read where sharing the Eucharist is any closer, or to be fair any further away.

Push?

Michael Slusser

Quote from: olarmy02 on July 22, 2010, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: Charles_Austin on July 22, 2010, 03:59:08 PM
http://www.lwf-assembly.org/experience/lwi-assembly-news/news-detail/article/415/

Thank you.  I don't see how Cardinal Kasper's speech leads one to think the ELCA is closer to sharing the Eucharist with the RCC.  It wasn't mentioned.  The bread sharing seemed to be in reference to actually feeding the hungry:

"But the ecumenical agenda is still unfinished. "We have every reason to continue and even to intensify and deepen our dialogues," the Cardinal said. Referring to the Assembly theme, "Give Us Today Our Daily Bread," he said that the millions of people who lack daily bread are "our common responsibility," and that Lutherans and Roman Catholics "can no longer afford our differences" when it comes to helping people in need."

It appears as though ecumincal projects are closer such as sharing bread with the hungry, and this is good.  However I didn't read where sharing the Eucharist is any closer, or to be fair any further away.

I'd like to see the whole speech too. "Closer" has got to be taken over a lengthy period of time--say the last 50 years. There, certainly closer: we didn't even talk to each other in public before that, much less probe deeply into each other's faith and theology in order to understand and, where that seemed appropriate, agree.

The text of the article didn't give the context for the quote that served as headline: "Lutherans and Catholics Can No Longer Afford Our Differences". Certainly we cannot be faithful to the Gospel if we rest content with the level of differences we have now.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Charles_Austin

Fr. Slusser, the Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue in Sweden and Finland is making some almost specific considerations about sharing the eucharist in some situations.
Furthermore, we know that eucharistic hospitality is more widespread than officially sanctioned, and that - as Bishop Hanson noted - sometimes the grassroots ecumenism stimulates what happens on other levels.

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