Pastoral Letter to My Bishops

Started by jrubyaz, August 22, 2009, 10:52:29 AM

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George Erdner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:32:59 PM
Quote from: Cnehring on August 25, 2009, 03:30:26 PM
Oh, there is a difference between "believe that we responded" and actually responding to the Word we have received through the Holy Scriptures.
Nope, no difference. A true belief is one that determines our actions. The Word creates a belief and we respond with actions.

Like when Eve was told "You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." She heard those words, thought they made sense to her, and she believed them and acted on them. Or when Jesus was told, "To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours." If Jesus had believed that lie, then things would have been very different.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: DCharlton on August 25, 2009, 03:50:32 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:11:33 PM

My post-high school training began at a conservative Lutheran Bible Institute, then from an LCMS college, where I met and married my (formerly) LCMS wife, so I've had some of the same unenlightened, simple training as you.


It seems, Brian, that your whole ministry has been a reaction against the Biblicist and Doctrinaire environment you endured at LBI and the LCMS college.  However, many my age and younger see the relativism and antinomianism of your generation to be as dangerous as the Biblicism and conservatism that you are reacting against. 
I'll admit to a sense of relativism, but not to antinomianism. I have maintained in many notes the importance of the Law as it is rightly used to lead to a peaceful society and to death to self and trust in the gospel for new life.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Darrell Wacker on August 25, 2009, 04:55:08 PM
I can believe the earth is flat and that doesn't make it so.
Whether it is so or not, if you believe it, it will determine your actions.

QuoteThose who believe it's ok to contradict God's clear word are wrong and are substituting their desires and understanding for that that is revealed in Scripture.
Nobody believes that it's OK to contradict God's clear word. We are acting in accord with our belief in what God is saying in his Word. Just because you believe something different about God's word doesn't make it so.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Erdner on August 25, 2009, 06:00:17 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:32:59 PM
Quote from: Cnehring on August 25, 2009, 03:30:26 PM
Oh, there is a difference between "believe that we responded" and actually responding to the Word we have received through the Holy Scriptures.
Nope, no difference. A true belief is one that determines our actions. The Word creates a belief and we respond with actions.

Like when Eve was told "You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." She heard those words, thought they made sense to her, and she believed them and acted on them.
Yup, and they proved to be true. They did not die (at least physically) on that day. Their eyes were opened. They were like God in knowing good and evil.

QuoteOr when Jesus was told, "To you I will give their glory and all this authority; for it has been given over to me, and I give it to anyone I please. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours." If Jesus had believed that lie, then things would have been very different.
Why do you think that's a lie? Sure things would have been different; Jesus could be ruling all the kingdoms of the world now rather than in the future!
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

gcnuss

Quoteauthor=Brian Stoffregen
Nobody believes that it's OK to contradict God's clear word. We are acting in accord with our belief in what God is saying in his Word. Just because you believe something different about God's word doesn't make it so.

Right back at you, Brian.  Those of us who hold to the traditional teachings of the church can say the same to you.

Brian Stoffregen

#140
Quote from: Gary Nuss, STS on August 25, 2009, 06:47:34 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Darrell Wacker on August 25, 2009, 04:55:08 PM
Nobody believes that it's OK to contradict God's clear word. We are acting in accord with our belief in what God is saying in his Word. Just because you believe something different about God's word doesn't make it so.

Right back at you, Brian.  Those of us who hold to the traditional teachings of the church can say the same to you.
Yes, you can. That's the stalemate we've been in for a decade. A difference is that I'm willing to recognize that your belief and actions on that belief come from your understanding of God speaking to you through the word. Many of the "traditionalists" are not willing to recognize that our belief and actions on that belief also come from our understanding of God speaking to us through the word.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

LutherMan

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Darrell Wacker on August 25, 2009, 04:55:08 PM
I can believe the earth is flat and that doesn't make it so.
Whether it is so or not, if you believe it, it will determine your actions.

QuoteThose who believe it's ok to contradict God's clear word are wrong and are substituting their desires and understanding for that that is revealed in Scripture.
Nobody believes that it's OK to contradict God's clear word. We are acting in accord with our belief in what God is saying in his Word. Just because you believe something different about God's word doesn't make it so.

LOL!  You and your wiggle-room theology would amuse me if there weren't consequenses.  I pray for your salvation, Pr. Stoffregen.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: LutherMan on August 25, 2009, 06:50:05 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Darrell Wacker on August 25, 2009, 04:55:08 PM
I can believe the earth is flat and that doesn't make it so.
Whether it is so or not, if you believe it, it will determine your actions.

QuoteThose who believe it's ok to contradict God's clear word are wrong and are substituting their desires and understanding for that that is revealed in Scripture.
Nobody believes that it's OK to contradict God's clear word. We are acting in accord with our belief in what God is saying in his Word. Just because you believe something different about God's word doesn't make it so.

LOL!  You and your wiggle-room theology would amuse me if there weren't consequenses.  I pray for your salvation, Pr. Stoffregen.
Fortunately, I do not believe that you nor I are saved by our theology whether it wiggles or not. I trust Jesus and his promises given to me in my baptism and weekly in the eucharist for my salvation.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

DCharlton

#143
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on August 25, 2009, 03:50:32 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:11:33 PM

My post-high school training began at a conservative Lutheran Bible Institute, then from an LCMS college, where I met and married my (formerly) LCMS wife, so I've had some of the same unenlightened, simple training as you.


It seems, Brian, that your whole ministry has been a reaction against the Biblicist and Doctrinaire environment you endured at LBI and the LCMS college.  However, many my age and younger see the relativism and antinomianism of your generation to be as dangerous as the Biblicism and conservatism that you are reacting against. 
I'll admit to a sense of relativism, but not to antinomianism. I have maintained in many notes the importance of the Law as it is rightly used to lead to a peaceful society and to death to self and trust in the gospel for new life.

Brian,

Forgive me for being argumentative, but I can't help repsonding.  What Law is it that you are upholding?  Gerhard Forde said it well when he called Antinomianism "fake theology."  One confuses the preaching of the Gospel with the act of abolishing the law.  Instead of "Your sins are forgiven," the message is "Good news.  The Law is null and void.  You can do what you want."  But since we can't live without the law, a new law has to be created to take place of the old.  Many even try to turn the Gospel into Law, calling it "The Second Use of the Gospel."  The Gospel beccomes the means by which we fashion a new world of inclusivity, gender neutrality, economic justice and the like.  

Antinomianism always leads to legalism of some sort.  So if I came to worship at your congregation, would I hear the Law as it is revealed in the Bible, or the law according to Marx, Freud, and various other modern ideologies?
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

George Erdner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 06:41:37 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on August 25, 2009, 03:50:32 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:11:33 PM

My post-high school training began at a conservative Lutheran Bible Institute, then from an LCMS college, where I met and married my (formerly) LCMS wife, so I've had some of the same unenlightened, simple training as you.


It seems, Brian, that your whole ministry has been a reaction against the Biblicist and Doctrinaire environment you endured at LBI and the LCMS college.  However, many my age and younger see the relativism and antinomianism of your generation to be as dangerous as the Biblicism and conservatism that you are reacting against. 
I'll admit to a sense of relativism, but not to antinomianism. I have maintained in many notes the importance of the Law as it is rightly used to lead to a peaceful society and to death to self and trust in the gospel for new life.

You've said that before, often. And yet your insistence that the Law can be thrown aside if it is inconvenient by the simple trick of creative interpretation gives lie to your claim to care about the Law.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: DCharlton on August 25, 2009, 07:05:31 PM
Forgive me for being argumentative, but I can't help repsonding.  What Law is it that you are upholding?  Gerhard Forde said it well when he called Antinomianism "fake theology."  One confuses the preaching of the Gospel with the act of abolishing the law.  Instead of "Your sins are forgiven," the message is "Good news.  The Law is null and void.  You can do what you want."  But since we can't live without the law, a new law has to be created to take place of the old.  Many even try to turn the Gospel into Law, calling it "The Second Use of the Gospel."  The Gospel beccomes the means by which we fashion a new world of inclusivity, gender neutrality, economic justice and the like.  

Antinomianism always leads to legalism of some sort.  So if I came to worship at your congregation, would I hear the Law as it is revealed in the Bible, or the law according to Marx, Freud, and various other modern ideologies?
I preach the Law as it is revealed in the Bible and our Confessions. Last Sunday, (John 6:56-69) I stated that the hard teaching of Jesus is the fact that our flesh counts for nothing. We want it to be "all about me," but Jesus says that we have to die to self. It's all about the Spirit. We can't even come to Jesus on our own. The Father has to "enable" us. (The translation used in the TNIV which was read.) Does this brief synopsis sound antinomian? Or is it properly using the Law to kill our human attempts to save ourselves -- to make it about self rather than all about God?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Erdner on August 25, 2009, 08:08:03 PM
You've said that before, often. And yet your insistence that the Law can be thrown aside if it is inconvenient by the simple trick of creative interpretation gives lie to your claim to care about the Law.
Where have I ever insisted that the law be thrown aside?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Thomas Byers

Mormons can receive a new revelation when they need it--can we?

George Erdner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 08:09:49 PM
Quote from: George Erdner on August 25, 2009, 08:08:03 PM
You've said that before, often. And yet your insistence that the Law can be thrown aside if it is inconvenient by the simple trick of creative interpretation gives lie to your claim to care about the Law.
Where have I ever insisted that the law be thrown aside?

When you supported the Task Force Statements.

Duh!

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Erdner on August 25, 2009, 08:14:21 PM
When you supported the Task Force Statements.
Uh, the Task Force submitted one Statement: Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust. Why is supporting that statement throwing out the Law?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

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