Pastoral Letter to My Bishops

Started by jrubyaz, August 22, 2009, 10:52:29 AM

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Darrell Wacker

#120
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 01:23:46 PM
Quote from: Darrell Wacker on August 25, 2009, 10:08:36 AM
Satan loves to sow discord and division, and that is exactly what he did in your midst.  He has turned brother against brother, and on a wider scale, church body against church body.

What do you do with Jesus' words in Matthew 10:34-36?

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
"a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law --
your enemies will be the members of your own household."

How do you know if the division comes because of Satan or because of Jesus?

It's simple.  You discern the spirits, and compare/contrast that to what God's Word says.  It's pretty easy, really. 

Of course, that comes from an unenlightened, simpleton layman from the so-often called fundamental LCMS, so what do I know?   ???

Cnehring

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 01:23:46 PM
How do you know if the division comes because of Satan or because of Jesus?

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.  2 Timothy 3:14-4:5


How do we know? Paul seems to suggest to stay with the Word we have received.

DCharlton

Quote from: Lutheranistic on August 25, 2009, 01:47:36 PM
Maybe it's this...maybe it's that...how are we to know?


Hmm.  That sounds familiar.  Doesn't someone on this forum use those kinds of words?

Quote from: Lutheranistic on August 25, 2009, 01:47:36 PM
"Some view..." or "Some understand...". So in other words, what we believe is that "some understand this" and "some understand that".

And this sound familiar too.  There is another person on this forum who makes this kind of statement on a regular basis.

Now, I can't remember.  Who might they be?
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Lutheranistic on August 25, 2009, 01:47:36 PM
Maybe it's this...maybe it's that...how are we to know?

Has anyone else noticed that even though the heading on this section of the ELCA website is "What we Believe", that the terminology within the statements is most often of the type "Some view..." or "Some understand...". So in other words, what we believe is that "some understand this" and "some understand that". Now I get it. Or not.
Yes, they can say that; and in the one that was quoted, it went on to say, "Adherents of both views would agree...." There are differences and there are agreements within our church -- as there are in any denomination or congregation.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: LutherMan on August 25, 2009, 01:35:29 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 01:23:46 PM

How do you know if the division comes because of Satan or because of Jesus?


It is very difficult to know what your (ELCA) perception or belief about Satan is with these kinds of official statements:
So, whatever you belief about Satan is, how do you know if divisions come because of Satan or because of Jesus?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Lutheranistic

I was trying to be Minnesota nice  ::)

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Darrell Wacker on August 25, 2009, 01:57:07 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 01:23:46 PM
Quote from: Darrell Wacker on August 25, 2009, 10:08:36 AM
Satan loves to sow discord and division, and that is exactly what he did in your midst.  He has turned brother against brother, and on a wider scale, church body against church body.

What do you do with Jesus' words in Matthew 10:34-36?

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
"a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law --
your enemies will be the members of your own household."

How do you know if the division comes because of Satan or because of Jesus?

It's simple.  You discern the spirits, and compare/contrast that to what God's Word says.  It's pretty easy, really.
We did that over a period of years; and decided that God's Word permits us to find a way to ordain folks in "publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships".

QuoteOf course, that comes from an unenlightened, simpleton layman from the so-often called fundamental LCMS, so what do I know?   ???
My post-high school training began at a conservative Lutheran Bible Institute, then from an LCMS college, where I met and married my (formerly) LCMS wife, so I've had some of the same unenlightened, simple training as you.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Cnehring on August 25, 2009, 02:24:00 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 01:23:46 PM
How do you know if the division comes because of Satan or because of Jesus?

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.  2 Timothy 3:14-4:5


How do we know? Paul seems to suggest to stay with the Word we have received.
I'm sure that those who voted for and others who supported the Statement and Recommendations believe that we responding to the Word we have received through the Holy Scriptures.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Cnehring

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: Cnehring on August 25, 2009, 02:24:00 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 01:23:46 PM
How do you know if the division comes because of Satan or because of Jesus?

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.  2 Timothy 3:14-4:5


How do we know? Paul seems to suggest to stay with the Word we have received.
I'm sure that those who voted for and others who supported the Statement and Recommendations believe that we responding to the Word we have received through the Holy Scriptures.

Oh, there is a difference between "believe that we responded" and actually responding to the Word we have received through the Holy Scriptures.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Cnehring on August 25, 2009, 03:30:26 PM
Oh, there is a difference between "believe that we responded" and actually responding to the Word we have received through the Holy Scriptures.
Nope, no difference. A true belief is one that determines our actions. The Word creates a belief and we respond with actions.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

DCharlton

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:11:33 PM

My post-high school training began at a conservative Lutheran Bible Institute, then from an LCMS college, where I met and married my (formerly) LCMS wife, so I've had some of the same unenlightened, simple training as you.


It seems, Brian, that your whole ministry has been a reaction against the Biblicist and Doctrinaire environment you endured at LBI and the LCMS college.  However, many my age and younger see the relativism and antinomianism of your generation to be as dangerous as the Biblicism and conservatism that you are reacting against. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Pilgrim

Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Christopher Miller


Thomas Byers

Has "Where to leave to" already disappeared?  tb

Darrell Wacker

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: Cnehring on August 25, 2009, 02:24:00 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 25, 2009, 01:23:46 PM
How do you know if the division comes because of Satan or because of Jesus?

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.  2 Timothy 3:14-4:5


How do we know? Paul seems to suggest to stay with the Word we have received.
I'm sure that those who voted for and others who supported the Statement and Recommendations believe that we responding to the Word we have received through the Holy Scriptures.

I can believe the earth is flat and that doesn't make it so.  Those who believe it's ok to contradict God's clear word are wrong and are substituting their desires and understanding for that that is revealed in Scripture.

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