Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms

Started by Richard Johnson, August 19, 2009, 05:41:51 PM

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Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Just_Here_For_CWA on August 20, 2009, 02:35:16 PM
Luther had three theological pieces: justification by grace through faith, Theology of the Cross and Law and Gospel. Brian, you cannot claim the first essential without the third one. And you do not do Law and Gospel, you do gospel reductionism by my long reading of your posts. Sorry.
I'm not claiming the first without the third. I've stated quite clearly in other posts about the necessity of the Law to expose sin and kill and the necessity of the Gospel to forgive and give new life. Without these, there is no justification by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

George Erdner

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 20, 2009, 03:11:35 PM
Quote from: Just_Here_For_CWA on August 20, 2009, 02:35:16 PM
Luther had three theological pieces: justification by grace through faith, Theology of the Cross and Law and Gospel. Brian, you cannot claim the first essential without the third one. And you do not do Law and Gospel, you do gospel reductionism by my long reading of your posts. Sorry.
I'm not claiming the first without the third. I've stated quite clearly in other posts about the necessity of the Law to expose sin and kill and the necessity of the Gospel to forgive and give new life. Without these, there is no justification by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yeah, out of one side of your mouth you say that the Law is important, and out of the other side of your mouth you say that the Law is what we think it is, not what God said it is.

It's pretty easy to be in favor of God's law when a vote of 66.6% changes it.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: George Erdner on August 20, 2009, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 20, 2009, 03:11:35 PM
Quote from: Just_Here_For_CWA on August 20, 2009, 02:35:16 PM
Luther had three theological pieces: justification by grace through faith, Theology of the Cross and Law and Gospel. Brian, you cannot claim the first essential without the third one. And you do not do Law and Gospel, you do gospel reductionism by my long reading of your posts. Sorry.
I'm not claiming the first without the third. I've stated quite clearly in other posts about the necessity of the Law to expose sin and kill and the necessity of the Gospel to forgive and give new life. Without these, there is no justification by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yeah, out of one side of your mouth you say that the Law is important, and out of the other side of your mouth you say that the Law is what we think it is, not what God said it is.

It's pretty easy to be in favor of God's law when a vote of 66.6% changes it.
For Lutherans, it is the uses of the law that are essential. It is essential that the Law be properly used.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Just_Here_For_CWA

Let's talk about gospel reductionism for a moment. Brian, you know what that looks like. It is the postion you express again and again. It is a flawed, I thin fatally flawed attempt at reconciling Law and Gospel with a Candyland approach to the game of Life, as it were.

Just_Here_For_CWA

Another thing. I'm not sure you ever could speak for Lutherans, but from yesterday on, I think we need to differentiate when we say "Lutherans". Clearly we do not believe in the same things. There is no more hypothetical "Lutheran," OK?

ThePhantom

Quote from: SCPO on August 20, 2009, 10:47:42 AM

      I am beginning to think that "The Phantom" might be a follower of the late Gene Scott.

What?

Be that as it may ... we believe Jesus was raised from the dead.  That's a lot more difficult to pull off than knock down a cross on a steeple. 

Yet, goes the argument, somehow the power that can raise the dead doesn't have the ability to raise a tornado. Sad.  Very sad.


pterandon

Back to the storms.

I caught Bishop Hanson saying something about his conversation with churches in the area that had experienced some storm damage.

The tornado uprooted some trees that were already slated for removal. [ q uote from memory ]

I think this is *his*  Gods-will-expressed-in-the-target-of-the-storm metaphor.  I'm personally more chilled by the cross knocked off the steeple, but I think we have to consider all the possible views here.

LutherMan

ELCA Assembly: Was God in Either Whirlwind?
Tornado touches convention center as Lutherans approve sexuality statement by the exact margin it needed to pass.
Ted Olsen | posted 8/20/2009 10:12AM



Most reports from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) assembly today attempt to tie together the denomination's vote to adopt a sexuality statement and the tornado strike on the Minneapolis Convention Center where the Lutherans were meeting. (No one was injured.)

"We trust that the weather is not a commentary on our work," said Steven Loy, chairman of the committee overseeing the statement. (He was quoted by The Washington Times and Associated Press.)

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/augustweb-only/133.41.0.html

Keith Falk

Quote from: Charles_Austin on August 20, 2009, 12:30:53 PM
So, Eric, what should we be doing here? We sing, we pray, the voting members legislate, the bishops bish and we volunteers do our work. There are terrific videos about work going on in various congregations around the country.
But, I suppose in your view, that's fiddling.


And we will conveniently ignore the fact that one of those congregations (the Oromo Lutheran congregation featured in a video) was staging a prayer vigil that the ELCA would NOT change policy, practice, and teaching.  After all, we only want to hear from the Africans so we can feel better about our diversity... but we will be sure to ignore them on sexuality.  As I overheard one person observe, if you thought we had a white church now... just wait until (if?) things pass on Friday morning!
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Bergs

A couple of things on the storm that knocked over the cross atop Central.  My children reported to me that they heard radio interviews, (I have not found them on youtube in brief searches) of people who said when the tornado first hit out of the corner of their eye they thought it was a flock of birds descending from the clouds.  Hopefully the symbolism will not be lost on the majority here.

Second, I have read some of the commentary here pooh-poohing the cross being knocked over.  I also sent an email with much of what I wrote here about God sending us a sign to my email contacts.  The response was mixed as one might expect with the wide circle of family and friends in my life.  Some wrote back about agreeing with me.  Some were offended.  Some offered different interpretations.

My wife made a wise interpretation of that broken cross that maybe is obvious to the rest of you.  This sign sent to us is maybe less of a warning to the ELCA as it is a sign to strenthen those of us who have or will be looking to leave the ELCA.  Many of us believe that over the years the ELCA no longer prominently puts the cross at the center of our faith.  Seeing the cross topple over where it has prominently stood in the center of Central Lutheran is symbolic of it.   

There is a lot of pain expressed here.  There are many stories, including mine, of feeling alienated from the faith that raised and nurtured us.  What is the right thing to do now?  That cross toppled over reinforces what I saw at the little ELCA congregation where we had been members for 25 years.  The cross is no longer at the center.  Leaving the ELCA was the correct thing to do despite the pain.

In Christ,
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN


But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

Kurt Weinelt

An interesting observation from our brothers and sisters at First Things drawing a parallel between the Wednesday storm, and a storm from history which ultimately resulted in the Reformation.  That storm was seen as a sign from God, and sent a young law student to the monastery.

See Bob Rainis' post to Pr. Saltzman's article.
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/08/20/like-a-mighty-wind/
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

Michael Slusser

Not "plagiarized" but quoted from Cassie Knight, Brazzaville Charms: Magic and Rebellion in the Republic of Congo (London: Frances Lincoln, 2007), 175-76: ". . . lightning and thunderstorms are evidence of the direct intervention of supernatural forces in daily life. Lightning is perceived as a sorcerer's tool, and it is sent to execute someone's wishes by striking the victim dead in an instant. In a country of frequent, dramatic storms, a lightning strike is not seen as extreme bad luck but as a direct intervention at someone's command." Just happened to read that passage this afternoon; how far we have come!

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Jakozak

As I previously posted, the storm is going to be what is most remembered about the ELCA's terrible actions this week.  It is being referenced in several places already:  Netto and First Things among others.  It was no coincidence.  It was sent by God, who is not mocked. 

What is most needed now is to get the LCMS quickly out of every joint work being done with the ELCA.  Now that the ELCA has partnered with the numerically larger Methodists, there should be no reason they couldn't do even more than when partnered with little ol' Missouri.

Rev. Jack A. Kozak,
Akron, Ohio

LutherMan

Quote from: Jakozak on August 22, 2009, 08:58:45 PM
Now that the ELCA has partnered with the numerically larger Methodists, there should be no reason they couldn't do even more than when partnered with little ol' Missouri.

Rev. Jack A. Kozak,
Akron, Ohio

ICAM Pr. Kozak.  The only thing we in the LCMS (and WELS) and ELCA share in common is the word Lutheran.  The ELCA is not Lutheran, they are apostate.

ThePhantom

Quote from: LutherMan on August 22, 2009, 09:04:51 PM

ICAM Pr. Kozak.  The only thing we in the LCMS (and WELS) and ELCA share in common is the word Lutheran.  The ELCA is not Lutheran, they are apostate.

  I'd appreciate it if you'd  hold off on that pronoun "they" for awhile.  There's a considerable crowd of pastors and congregations in the ELCA that are, as of this week, no longer truly "of" the ELCA.

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