Wednesday afternoon: destructive storms

Started by Richard Johnson, August 19, 2009, 05:41:51 PM

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Dadoo

Quote from: Mike1in3 on August 19, 2009, 06:40:27 PM
I dunno, I don't like the whole "God smote them," line of thinking. Others may say, "The devil tried to stop us with a tornado, but we shall overcome." I'd rather let the weather be the weather and prevail on the basis of God's Word and sound reason.

If the HS can speak thought the votes of voting members at an ELCA assembly then why not through a thunderstorm?
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dadoo on August 19, 2009, 10:01:19 PM
Quote from: Mike1in3 on August 19, 2009, 06:40:27 PM
I dunno, I don't like the whole "God smote them," line of thinking. Others may say, "The devil tried to stop us with a tornado, but we shall overcome." I'd rather let the weather be the weather and prevail on the basis of God's Word and sound reason.

If the HS can speak thought the votes of voting members at an ELCA assembly then why not through a thunderstorm?
Voting members know what they are voting on. Thunder just says, "Boom," and it's hard to interpret what that means -- even with a lawyer as the Secretary of the Church.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Iowegian

Quote from: Dadoo on August 19, 2009, 09:59:41 PM
I thought that the opposition to the marriage and children connection was troubling as well. I read that one speaker was offended by an amendment that would have made that connection because she cannot have children. I fell sorry for the pain that she feels. But by that line of reasoning all of us should take to wheel chairs since our constant, obnoxious ability to walk, an ability we flaunt all day, offends those who have no use of their legs.

I was taken a bit aback by this along with a comment about single mothers that was thrown out - it strikes me as an odd position to not acknowledge that there is a situation that is perhaps not what God intends.

I felt for the witness about infertility - but I don't think that she would have been comforted by the church/her pastor shrugging the situation off as much ado about nothing... because something in the situation obviously did trouble her.

It's okay to also recognize that certain situations aren't exactly the kind of situations that God wants for us.  I think I would find that more comforting than affirmation.

Iowegian

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 19, 2009, 10:10:06 PM
Quote from: Dadoo on August 19, 2009, 10:01:19 PM
Quote from: Mike1in3 on August 19, 2009, 06:40:27 PM
I dunno, I don't like the whole "God smote them," line of thinking. Others may say, "The devil tried to stop us with a tornado, but we shall overcome." I'd rather let the weather be the weather and prevail on the basis of God's Word and sound reason.

If the HS can speak thought the votes of voting members at an ELCA assembly then why not through a thunderstorm?
Voting members know what they are voting on. Thunder just says, "Boom," and it's hard to interpret what that means -- even with a lawyer as the Secretary of the Church.

Was the thunder waving a white card?   :)

ThePhantom

Quote from: Chad Thompson on August 19, 2009, 09:45:41 PM


This was the part of the debate I found most unnerving:  there was a very distinct feeling here that "children" have been, well, de-emphasized in favor of something else.  Self-affirmation seems to trump even the future of the community itself.


well duh Chad, this is a church that's made clear since the late 80's that marriage and family and children are NOT a priority.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Chad Thompson on August 19, 2009, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 19, 2009, 10:10:06 PM
Quote from: Dadoo on August 19, 2009, 10:01:19 PM
Quote from: Mike1in3 on August 19, 2009, 06:40:27 PM
I dunno, I don't like the whole "God smote them," line of thinking. Others may say, "The devil tried to stop us with a tornado, but we shall overcome." I'd rather let the weather be the weather and prevail on the basis of God's Word and sound reason.

If the HS can speak thought the votes of voting members at an ELCA assembly then why not through a thunderstorm?
Voting members know what they are voting on. Thunder just says, "Boom," and it's hard to interpret what that means -- even with a lawyer as the Secretary of the Church.

Was the thunder waving a white card?   :)
Flashes of red or green could have been interpreted as for or against. :)
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Dadoo

Quote from: Chad Thompson on August 19, 2009, 10:10:37 PM
Quote from: Dadoo on August 19, 2009, 09:59:41 PM
I thought that the opposition to the marriage and children connection was troubling as well. I read that one speaker was offended by an amendment that would have made that connection because she cannot have children. I fell sorry for the pain that she feels. But by that line of reasoning all of us should take to wheel chairs since our constant, obnoxious ability to walk, an ability we flaunt all day, offends those who have no use of their legs.

I was taken a bit aback by this along with a comment about single mothers that was thrown out - it strikes me as an odd position to not acknowledge that there is a situation that is perhaps not what God intends.

I felt for the witness about infertility - but I don't think that she would have been comforted by the church/her pastor shrugging the situation off as much ado about nothing... because something in the situation obviously did trouble her.

It's okay to also recognize that certain situations aren't exactly the kind of situations that God wants for us.  I think I would find that more comforting than affirmation.

But is is strangely consistent. God intends someone to be infertile and therefor we need to embrace infertility as a normal state in life and celebrate and invite it and therefore not speak anything that might reflect negative on infertility. Replace infertility with homosexuality and . . .

This is doing theology w/out a Fall. Everything is just as God ordains it. There is no corruption and therefore the vote is a sign of the motion of the HS., etc. It might be nuts, it might not be the way you and I are doing theology, but it is consistent.
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

Dadoo

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 19, 2009, 10:10:06 PM
Quote from: Dadoo on August 19, 2009, 10:01:19 PM
Quote from: Mike1in3 on August 19, 2009, 06:40:27 PM
I dunno, I don't like the whole "God smote them," line of thinking. Others may say, "The devil tried to stop us with a tornado, but we shall overcome." I'd rather let the weather be the weather and prevail on the basis of God's Word and sound reason.

If the HS can speak thought the votes of voting members at an ELCA assembly then why not through a thunderstorm?
Voting members know what they are voting on. Thunder just says, "Boom," and it's hard to interpret what that means -- even with a lawyer as the Secretary of the Church.

WHy? The storm wreaks havoc at the direction of the HS and the voting members vote 'no" by the HS's call.  ;D The only advantage the storm has that it can't disobey.  The voting members- another story . . .
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

ThePhantom

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on August 19, 2009, 10:12:36 PM

Flashes of red or green could have been interpreted as for or against. :)

So when Central fills out the insurance paperwork to replace what was blown down,  will they use the proper insurance term; "An Act of God?"

Some metaphors are simply too powerful to ignore.  We have a congregational meeting already scheduled for Sunday evening.  Leaders lead.  Their pastor can now share with them how, in the midst of defeating an amendment specifically aimed at strengthening and supporting marriage, family, and children - the winds arose and blew off Central Lutheran's Steeple.

A Steeple being blown off ... a wonderfully powerful image for the week especially given Central's dedication to supplanting God's plan for marriage and family.  Maybe tomorrow I'll put our graphic artist to work coming up with something for Sunday's meeting.




J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: ThePhantom on August 19, 2009, 11:03:51 PM

A Steeple being blown off ... a wonderfully powerful image for the week especially given Central's dedication to supplanting God's plan for marriage and family


Given that the Goodsoil worship took place in that building this evening, and knowing all that Goodsoil represents, was not this Act of God perfectly timed and marvelously illustrative of the Neibuhrian ant-creed:

"a God without wrath who brings humans without sin into a kingdom without judgment through a Christ without a cross.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

northdakota

Quote from: Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS on August 19, 2009, 11:24:36 PM
Quote from: ThePhantom on August 19, 2009, 11:03:51 PM

A Steeple being blown off ... a wonderfully powerful image for the week especially given Central's dedication to supplanting God's plan for marriage and family


Given that the Goodsoil worship took place in that building this evening, and knowing all that Goodsoil represents, was not this Act of God perfectly timed and marvelously illustrative of the Neibuhrian ant-creed:

"a God without wrath who brings humans without sin into a kingdom without judgment through a Christ without a cross.

The Lord's timing is impeccable. He was also merciful in his wrath in that no one was hurt. If only they had seen and heard and considered. But as is written in Revelation, they would not repent.

Christ havemercy!
Rob Buechler

Charles_Austin

Well, if God was warning the ELCA or mad, then the Almighty is puny and a lousy aim. A tiny part of Central Lutheran damaged, and the fuller wrath of the storm hits residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Rev. J. Thomas Shelley, STS on August 19, 2009, 11:24:36 PM
Quote from: ThePhantom on August 19, 2009, 11:03:51 PM

A Steeple being blown off ... a wonderfully powerful image for the week especially given Central's dedication to supplanting God's plan for marriage and family


Given that the Goodsoil worship took place in that building this evening, and knowing all that Goodsoil represents, was not this Act of God perfectly timed and marvelously illustrative of the Neibuhrian ant-creed:

"a God without wrath who brings humans without sin into a kingdom without judgment through a Christ without a cross.
I note that the first Pentecost, the empowering of the disciples to go out and change the world, came with the sound of rushing wind. I'm sure that if that room had glass windows, some would have been broken.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

TravisW

#28
Quote from: Charles_Austin on August 19, 2009, 11:39:01 PM
Well, if God was warning the ELCA or mad, then the Almighty is puny and a lousy aim. A tiny part of Central Lutheran damaged, and the fuller wrath of the storm hits residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis.

That was for traffic violations, and the result of the coordinate prayers of 7 roofing companies. 

Bergs

The cross on Central Lutheran blew down within a few hours of the GoodSoil service.  There has not been a tornado hitting Minneapolis proper since 1981 (I remember it well and have lived here the whole time).  Rarely does a tornado hit that close to downtown, in 1981 it did not get that close.  Everyone including the security guards at my work who are in constant contact with the Hennepin County Sheriff's office were taken off guard.  The day was cool, it was pouring rain, it was not a typical weather pattern for a tornado.  The weather professionals had predicted rain but I heard no tornado watch information.  This was flat out, a weird unpredicted funnel.  Yes, there was much more damage elsewhere in Minneapolis, lots of trees down and homes damaged.  But the cross went down at Central Lutheran.  Yes, just a tiny part, the cross at Central went down.   Just the tiny, insignificant cross.

It burns my toast to see the derision of the symbolism of the cross blowing down, the spire was split.  I took pictures when down there tonight.  It was very eerie.  My oh my how we moderns downplay such God-given imagery.  This was a God thing, and I am not one who takes lightly to these kinds of signs.  The cross was toppled by a very unexpected tornado at Central Lutheran just before GoodSoil had its service.  This was not random.  There are signs for those who have eyes.  We have received such a sign.   

http://www.startribune.com/galleries/53727487.html?elr=KArks8Lcac_QE77DyPDiUeLcac_jE77DyPDiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUr

Lord have mercy
Christ have mercy
Brian J. Bergs
Minneapolis, MN





But let me tell Thee that now, today, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet. But that has been our doing.
The Grand Inquisitor

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