Obama, Bill Ayres, Praying for Authorities and Luther's Explanation of the 8th

Started by anonymous, November 14, 2008, 10:22:20 AM

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anonymous

OK, so Ayers did his TV interview today:


"In the afterword, Ayers does not elaborate on the description of "family friends."

"In 2008 there was a lot of chatter on the blogosphere about my relationship with Barack Obama: we had served together on the board of a foundation, knew one another as neighbors and family friends, held an initial fundraiser at my house, where I'd made a small donation to his earliest political campaign," Ayers writes.

http://townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2008/11/13/ayers_reflects_on_obama_in_new_afterword_to_memoir


Lutheran_Lay_Leader

Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 10:22:20 AM
OK, so Ayers did his TV interview today:


"In the afterword, Ayers does not elaborate on the description of "family friends."

"In 2008 there was a lot of chatter on the blogosphere about my relationship with Barack Obama: we had served together on the board of a foundation, knew one another as neighbors and family friends, held an initial fundraiser at my house, where I'd made a small donation to his earliest political campaign," Ayers writes.

http://townhall.com/news/politics-elections/2008/11/13/ayers_reflects_on_obama_in_new_afterword_to_memoir

To avoid confusion and misunderstandings, could you fill us all in a little more explicitly on what your intentions for this thread about Obama are?

anonymous

#3
There is no hidden agenda. What is everyone's impression of the interview? Does it shed light on the accusations from the right that Obama was being less than truthful? adn secondly, if one is a Lutheran Christian and believes that Obama was not being straightforward, how do they answer when another Christian is being less subtle and challenges the PE's honesty? Third how do we pray for an official once convinced that they have been guilty of repeatedly lying? We were confronted with that recently under Bill Clinton's presidency. What did people do?

Also, it seems to me that Ayers bit about the definition of "terrorism" is way beyond Clinton's "depends on what 'is' is."

pterandon

Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 01:24:13 PMThird how do we pray for an official once convinced that they have been guilty of repeatedly lying? We were confronted with that recently under Bill Clinton's presidency. What did people do?

Now there's a woefully partisan omission of some recent history.

anonymous

Quote from: pterandon on November 14, 2008, 02:06:10 PM
Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 01:24:13 PMThird how do we pray for an official once convinced that they have been guilty of repeatedly lying? We were confronted with that recently under Bill Clinton's presidency. What did people do?

Now there's a woefully partisan omission of some recent history.

Not following you. "partisan omission" You mean it was partisan to include Clinton?

At the time I was more or less a supporter of Clinton. I sincerely looked for a way to understand how I as a Christian and a pastor was to understand and address a situation that was being talked about and talked about and talked about.

I want the counry to move on, but I can't help but wonder if again and again we are going to see Obama caught in "less-than-truthfulness."  For example, with the Ayres video today, out slips "bus trips downtown together." That trip from Hyde park to the Loop is at least half an hour. You can get to know a person  on a trip like that. But it was plural. These tow knew each other, worked with each other, yet they speak of it weird, both of them distancing themselves from the other in "artful" ways.

jrubyaz

[
Let's see, how do we pray for a sinner?

The scriptures say to pray unceasingly. And so I will. I'm a sinner. So is the PE. And whoever you are , Valentin, in real life, you are a sinner also.

So by all means, let's keep praying. There are no limits on prayer scripture gives us when it comes to praying for fellow sinners. Unless maybe you do feel there are limits?

Jeff Ruby   


Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 01:24:13 PM
There is no hidden agenda. What is everyone's impression of the interview? Does it shed light on the accusations from the right that Obama was being less than truthful? adn secondly, if one is a Lutheran Christian and believes that Obama was not being straightforward, how do they answer when another Christian is being less subtle and challenges the PE's honesty? Third how do we pray for an official once convinced that they have been guilty of repeatedly lying? We were confronted with that recently under Bill Clinton's presidency. What did people do?

Also, it seems to me that Ayers bit about the definition of "terrorism" is way beyond Clinton's "depends on what 'is' is."

grabau14

I think Valentin's point is that William Ayers was just a "guy" in Obama's neighborhood before the election, and now after the election, they are "friends."  If the media did their job instead of getting the "chills" everytime he reads off a tele-prompter, this stuff would have fully come out.  Instead, the media blasted Gov. Palin for saying that Obama and Ayers friends.  Gov. Palin, Sean Hannity, and Rush were telling the truth and the media overlooked this.

The sad thing is that the PE because of his "friends" could never pass a background check to become a FBI or Secret Service Agent.  The media dropped the ball.  But, I find it interesting that Obama wants to know the background including "friends" who could cause problems for his presidency of those who are interested in being appointed to various positions. 

So I will pray for this country and the PE.   I will pray that he will appoint Justices to the Supreme Court and judges to the Federal Courts that will be strict constructionists.

Dadoo

Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: pterandon on November 14, 2008, 02:06:10 PM
Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 01:24:13 PMThird how do we pray for an official once convinced that they have been guilty of repeatedly lying? We were confronted with that recently under Bill Clinton's presidency. What did people do?

Now there's a woefully partisan omission of some recent history.

Not following you. "partisan omission" You mean it was partisan to include Clinton?

At the time I was more or less a supporter of Clinton. I sincerely looked for a way to understand how I as a Christian and a pastor was to understand and address a situation that was being talked about and talked about and talked about.

I want the counry to move on, but I can't help but wonder if again and again we are going to see Obama caught in "less-than-truthfulness."  For example, with the Ayres video today, out slips "bus trips downtown together." That trip from Hyde park to the Loop is at least half an hour. You can get to know a person  on a trip like that. But it was plural. These tow knew each other, worked with each other, yet they speak of it weird, both of them distancing themselves from the other in "artful" ways.

A number of years ago I was reading a lot on leadership and leaders and came across a strange little study.  In it they asked 100 college students to, in front of a camera, convince their peers that a certain kind of drink was really not too bad when in fact they, the speakers, knew it tasted putrid.  They found that about 10% of the people could pull it off- in other words, they could make the case and nothing in their demeanor gave them away and, equally important, they convinced an audience that a putrid drink was actually not so bad.  Further research on these individuals showed that they were true "leaders"  in the various associations they hung around with and they were somewhat on the charismatic(not theologically mind you) side.  

The researchers concluded that a true leader had the ability to tell little white lies without flinching.  They likened it to the ability of parents who can and do tell their kids that the medicine is not going to taste all that bad or that the shot won't hurt, at least not as much as the kid thinks it will.

So a politician did not tell the plain truth on the campaign trail.  Yes- and?  We expected.. what?  We vote for people based on a complex process that in the end makes us feel better about our future, even if some of what we were told was not technically true and even if we suspect it was not technically true.  Senator Obama's tale with Ayers falls into this realm.  
Peter Kruse

Diversity and tolerance are very complex concepts. Rigid conformity is needed to ensure their full realization. - Mike Adams

jrubyaz

Matthew,

Maybe we watched two different ABC  interviews on the link provided. I am not going to get into another battle about partisan politics....suffice to say the following:


We are to pray without ceasing for all sinners, including Mr. Ayers and the PE .

My Ayers rejected what was told in the press as "profoundly dishonest".  He admitted to hosting one of twenty coffee meetings Sen Obama attended  in one day  and working with him on a board to help housing and schools in Chicago. He says he knew him as thousands of Chicagoans knew the PE.

He rejected guilt by association, and the American people did too on November 4th.

And how does putting a charitable construction on all things and bearing false witness play into this? i

I have ridden a city bus many times.  I like to chat with people. In chatting with people, if they are criminals, or did something wrong in their life, does that make me one? I  served on a Lutheran board once with an embezzler and with a man who represented Gov. Symington's (former R- AZ Governor) office. The Governor was later surrounded by scandal and resigned.

I am not an embezzler or crook because I served on that Board. I don't believe Sen McCain is a criminal because he had Charles Keating to his home..

Why would Christians practice guilt by association?

Jeff Ruby

   
Quote from: Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither on November 14, 2008, 02:59:24 PM
I think Valentin's point is that William Ayers was just a "guy" in Obama's neighborhood before the election, and now after the election, they are "friends."  If the media did their job instead of getting the "chills" everytime he reads off a tele-prompter, this stuff would have fully come out.  Instead, the media blasted Gov. Palin for saying that Obama and Ayers friends.  Gov. Palin, Sean Hannity, and Rush were telling the truth and the media overlooked this.

The sad thing is that the PE because of his "friends" could never pass a background check to become a FBI or Secret Service Agent.  The media dropped the ball.  But, I find it interesting that Obama wants to know the background including "friends" who could cause problems for his presidency of those who are interested in being appointed to various positions. 

So I will pray for this country and the PE.   I will pray that he will appoint Justices to the Supreme Court and judges to the Federal Courts that will be strict constructionists.


Richard Johnson

Let's see . . . a United States senator, the president-elect, a self-confessed Christian (whatever you may think of his theology), describes a relationship one way. An admitted terrorist (or at least one who admits to having done things that most of us would describe as terrorism) describes the relationship in different terms.

Which one are you inclined to believe, and why?

Incidentally, I have a "family friend" serving a life sentence for murdering his wife. I do not cease to regard him as my friend because of his crime. Certainly my relationship to him, my prayers for him, take a different form than they once did. But do I describe him as "no longer my friend"? No, I do not.

And ditto to Jeff's post above about "how to pray" in such a situation. I've always found that my prayers are more faithful when I stop trying to tell God specifically how to do his job, and simply bring before the throne of mercy those for whom I pray.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Donald_Kirchner

The appropriate analogy, Rev. Johnson, would be: Would you, after-the-fact, strike up the friendship with the guy serving a life sentence for murdering his wife?

Or an even more appropriate analogy: The guy murdered his wife and, through police error, his murder charge was dismissed. He's interviewed by David Horowitz and states: "Guilty as hell. Free as a bird. America is a great country." Later he said it wasn't enough; he should have murdered his brother's wife too. Would you then strike up a freindship and pal around with him? The guy then writes a book. Would you write a positive, promotional review of his book? He appreciates your friendship and wants to host a little get-together for you in his home. Would you accept the offer and attend? You live in the same neighborhood. Would you join him in chats on half-hour bus rides to work?

Remember, the guy is completely unrepentant. He wishes he'd killed more. Would you even shake the guy's hand?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Richard Johnson

Quote from: dgkirch on November 14, 2008, 07:17:55 PM
The appropriate analogy, Rev. Johnson, would be: Would you, after-the-fact, strike up the friendship with the guy serving a life sentence for murdering his wife?

Or an even more appropriate analogy: The guy murdered his wife and, through police error, his murder charge was dismissed. He's interviewed by David Horowitz and states: "Guilty as hell. Free as a bird. America is a great country." Later he said it wasn't enough; he should have murdered his brother's wife too. Would you then strike up a freindship and pal around with him?

Mark 2.16, and many more.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Donald_Kirchner

Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

jrubyaz

Yes,  I think Richard is right. Jesus did that. He partied at the homes of tax collectors and sinners. He didn't agree with what they did, and said so. But he loved them.

There will always be people in life who operate on a hermeneutic of suspicion.  Always looking to blame. Always looking to point fingers. Always looking for the worst possible thing. I have never really understood that, but sadly that is the way some people live.

It is one thing to have valid questions and explore those questions. We did for two years as a nation, and on November 4 many people decided that suspicion,  and guilt by association was not substantive in this case.

I repeat, if this standard is applied, is Sen McCain a criminal for hosting Charles Keating at his home numerous times? For associating with him and receiving money from him? 

Between 1982 and 1987, Sen McCain had received $112,000 in political contributions from Keating and his associates. In addition, McCain's wife Cindy McCain and her father Jim Hensley had invested $359,100 in the Fountain Square Project, a Keating shopping center, in April 1986, a year before McCain met with the regulators.

Sen McCain, his family, and their baby-sitter had made nine trips at Keating's expense, sometimes aboard Keating's jet; three of the trips were made during vacations to Keating's opulent Bahamas retreat at Cat Cay. McCain did not pay Keating (in the amount of $13,433) for some of the trips until years after they were taken, when he learned that Keating was in trouble over Lincoln.


So, is Sen McCain a criminal ? I don't think he is, although he did some questionable things, which obviously resulted in the Keating Five Scandal. His name was cleared, but obviously he used poor judgment.

You can't apply one standard to the PE and another to all other politicians. Which is it? If you believe both men are guilty by association, then please provide your argument. 

What kind of logical reasoning is being used here? 

Jeff Ruby


Quote from: dgkirch on November 14, 2008, 07:17:55 PM
The appropriate analogy, Rev. Johnson, would be: Would you, after-the-fact, strike up the friendship with the guy serving a life sentence for murdering his wife?

Or an even more appropriate analogy: The guy murdered his wife and, through police error, his murder charge was dismissed. He's interviewed by David Horowitz and states: "Guilty as hell. Free as a bird. America is a great country." Later he said it wasn't enough; he should have murdered his brother's wife too. Would you then strike up a freindship and pal around with him? The guy then writes a book. Would you write a positive, promotional review of his book? He appreciates your friendship and wants to host a little get-together for you in his home. Would you accept the offer and attend? You live in the same neighborhood. Would you join him in chats on half-hour bus rides to work?

Remember, the guy is completely unrepentant. He wishes he'd killed more. Would you even shake the guy's hand?

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