Obama, Bill Ayres, Praying for Authorities and Luther's Explanation of the 8th

Started by anonymous, November 14, 2008, 10:22:20 AM

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Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 01:24:13 PM
Third how do we pray for an official once convinced that they have been guilty of repeatedly lying?


We are instructed to pray for governing authorities.  Period.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

anonymous

Quote from: Pr. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS on November 14, 2008, 11:13:05 PM
Quote from: Valentin Ernst Löscher on November 14, 2008, 01:24:13 PM
Third how do we pray for an official once convinced that they have been guilty of repeatedly lying?


We are instructed to pray for governing authorities.  Period.

Pax, Steven+

I thought perhaps we could pray for their betterment, perhaps even their conversion. But that seems to be telling God what to do. Hmmm. Furthermore, it sees that we are all sinners, so that pretty much covers it all. Wonder why we bother with sermons? Holy pep talks?

Is this either historic Lutheranism or the apostolic faith?

Lutheran_Lay_Leader

I don't think it crosses the line of telling God what to do to be a little specific in our prayers. There are times when we ought to pray that God grant our governing authorities wisdom to make the right decisions, and there are time when we ought to pray that God grant our governing authorities the strength of will to implement those decisions. There are times when we ought to pray for other things.

Otherwise, we could pretty much reduce every prayer of the church to this:

God in Heaven,
Please give everyone who needs anything whatever you think they need.
Thanks.
Amen.

Any more detail than that could be construed as "telling God what to do".

Dan Fienen

The purpose of prayer is to talk to God.  Talking to God is not for the purpose of giving Him information that He would not otherwise have.  It does build our relationship to Him.  What is wrong with telling God what we want Him to do?  Although we need to do it with humbleness and the realization that He usually has a better idea and will go with that.  Telling God what we want Him to do says more about us than it commands God.  When I pray for the sick, I pray for healing - recognizing that the healing may not be exactly the kind of healing we have in mind.  Paul prayed that God would heal his thorn in the flesh and God gave him healing - not taking away the thorn but giving him the strength to deal with it and the insight to realize the lesson it could teach. 

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

swbohler

"He (Jesus) partied at the homes of tax collectors and sinners."  I am more than a little put off by the thought of Jesus as a "party guy".

Richard Johnson

Quote from: G. Erdner, a Layman on November 15, 2008, 11:35:44 AM
Otherwise, we could pretty much reduce every prayer of the church to this:

God in Heaven,
Please give everyone who needs anything whatever you think they need.
Thanks.
Amen.


Or, on the other hand, we could expand:
"Thy will be done. But just in case Thou art not quite clear about what Thy will ought to be, or in case Thou yet remainest undecided, let me offer Thee my humble opinion."  :-\

Seriously, when I pray for those in authority, I pray for God's blessing, guidance and direction. What shape and form that takes is not really my concern.

My mother-in-law is in late stages of Alzheimer's. I have a brother-in-law who prays that God will take her. I, on the other hand, pray that God will give her peace. How God gives her peace is really God's business; he will do it right.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

grabau14

Quote from: swbohler on November 15, 2008, 12:53:56 PM
"He (Jesus) partied at the homes of tax collectors and sinners."  I am more than a little put off by the thought of Jesus as a "party guy".

Agreed,  Jesus sat and ate with sinners in need of his saving presence.  To equate Obama with Jesus which Richard and Jeff are doing is laughable.  Obama sits and eats with unrepentant terrorists, anti-semites, and a guy who bought him a house and property at a low, low price who was later thrown in jail.

Richard Johnson

Quote from: Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither on November 15, 2008, 01:59:07 PM

Agreed,  Jesus sat and ate with sinners in need of his saving presence.  To equate Obama with Jesus which Richard and Jeff are doing is laughable.  Obama sits and eats with unrepentant terrorists, anti-semites, and a guy who bought him a house and property at a low, low price who was later thrown in jail.

Read more carefully, young man. My citation of Jesus was in response to a question which was directed to me: "The appropriate analogy, Rev. Johnson, would be: Would you, after-the-fact, strike up the friendship with the guy serving a life sentence for murdering his wife?" I was hardly equating Obama with Jesus. I was saying that, following the example of my Lord, I would in fact be willing to befriend a man serving a life sentence for murdering his wife. As I think Jesus would do.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

loschwitz

Quote from: Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither on November 15, 2008, 01:59:07 PM
Quote from: swbohler on November 15, 2008, 12:53:56 PM
"He (Jesus) partied at the homes of tax collectors and sinners."  I am more than a little put off by the thought of Jesus as a "party guy".

Agreed,  Jesus sat and ate with sinners in need of his saving presence.  To equate Obama with Jesus which Richard and Jeff are doing is laughable.  Obama sits and eats with unrepentant terrorists, anti-semites, and a guy who bought him a house and property at a low, low price who was later thrown in jail.

That's right Jesus only sat and ate with nice sinners.  And everybody was always very well behaved.

On the other hand it's difficult to see Jesus as a party guy.  He was much too intense.  He had an edge and focus that did not lend itself to your usual 30s something single guy behavior.

peter_speckhard

Even Jesus, before saying "nevertheless not my will but Thy will be done" still went ahead and informed God the Father that Jesus preferred that the cup pass from Him. St. Paul prayed that the thorn in the flesh be removed and received an answer in the negative. I think expressing our own desire/will in the matter is almost a prerequisite for praying "Thy will be done" in a meaningful way. It also helps us to see God's will at work in events after the fact even when things didn't turn out as we'd hoped.   

pterandon


Lutheran_Lay_Leader

Quote from: swbohler on November 15, 2008, 12:53:56 PM
"He (Jesus) partied at the homes of tax collectors and sinners."  I am more than a little put off by the thought of Jesus as a "party guy".

I, on the other hand, like to think that Jesus did laugh, and tell jokes, and otherwise enjoyed Himself. I like to think that it was really pleasant to hang out with Jesus back then. I simply cannot bring myself to believe that God doesn't have a sense of humor.

Richard Johnson

Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 15, 2008, 04:27:24 PM
Even Jesus, before saying "nevertheless not my will but Thy will be done" still went ahead and informed God the Father that Jesus preferred that the cup pass from Him. St. Paul prayed that the thorn in the flesh be removed and received an answer in the negative. I think expressing our own desire/will in the matter is almost a prerequisite for praying "Thy will be done" in a meaningful way. It also helps us to see God's will at work in events after the fact even when things didn't turn out as we'd hoped.   

I think that's a good point, though I might point out that in both cases the pray-er was praying about some matter related directly to himself and his own needs and desire--not praying for others, and certainly not for "those in authority."
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

Quote from: G. Erdner, a Layman on November 15, 2008, 05:25:33 PM
Quote from: swbohler on November 15, 2008, 12:53:56 PM
"He (Jesus) partied at the homes of tax collectors and sinners."  I am more than a little put off by the thought of Jesus as a "party guy".

I, on the other hand, like to think that Jesus did laugh, and tell jokes, and otherwise enjoyed Himself. I like to think that it was really pleasant to hang out with Jesus back then. I simply cannot bring myself to believe that God doesn't have a sense of humor.

Right! I mean, haven't you people read The Shack8)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

loschwitz

Do you suppose that Jesus, just before plucking Peter out of the water, allowed himself a chuckle or at least a smile, when Peter suddenly realized what he was walking on and began to sink?

The passage can be read with different degrees of seriousness, but can one also see a sense of the comic?

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