Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC

Started by Marshall_Hahn, November 02, 2007, 02:35:02 PM

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Dave_Poedel

Quote from: Dave Benke on November 09, 2007, 07:16:00 PM
More and more of our Atlantic District parishes use the RCA format for adult baptismal instruction and preparation for first Holy Communion, including - because this is the Atlantic District - trained lay catechists, the book which is signed by all the baptizands/instructees including the Bishop's signature, and of course the Vigil of Easter.  During Holy Week, cognregations gather for a Eucharist at which the Bishop blesses the oils for use on that Vigil and through the year by those catechumens, baptizands and for the sick.   

Dave Benke



Somewhere in my study I have a Lutheran "RCIA" program with the catechesis thing, the "steps" that parallel the early Church's program for preparing the catechumens. I heard it was a joint AF/CPH program, but AF ended up publishing it (P. McCain, any truth behind that rumor?)

I have long stated that the future direction for folks becoming Lutheran will have to become more and more like the adult catechuminate model.  Folks are not just not born into Christian homes, they often have no prior exposure to the Christian Church.  Before I retired from college teaching a few years back, I had 19-20 year olds who would ask if they could visit my church, what to expect, how to dress, etc.  When I inquired about their backgrounds, they said they had never been inside of a church in their lives.  When I asked about weddings and funerals, they said that weddings were at resorts and guest ranches, funerals (most had not ever been to one) were in funeral homes.

We are going to be starting from scratch, and a 5 session "Pastor's Class" will NOT be adequate catechesis.

The question then becomes:  do we do the traditional Lutheran thing and educate these folks completely and then administer the Sacraments of Initiation?  Or do we do the mysticgogical catechesis approach of St. Ambrose of Milan?

I submit that, with the exception of our esteemed Bishop of the Atlantic District, we in the LCMS are not equipped to implement this new-ancient method of catechesis in our parishes and circuits.  I humbly suggest we get our acts together.  Bishop Benke, is your protocol available anywhere we can get access to it?

ptmccain

Quote from: grabau14 on November 09, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
There is no difference between Arius and his vile filth and the what Spong passes off as Christianity.  Lord, have mercy.

Actually, Arius did not deny many of the things that Spong does!

John_Hannah

Quote from: Dave Poedel, STS on November 09, 2007, 11:12:25 PM

Somewhere in my study I have a Lutheran "RCIA" program with the catechesis thing, the "steps" that parallel the early Church's program for preparing the catechumens. I heard it was a joint AF/CPH program, but AF ended up publishing it (P. McCain, any truth behind that rumor?)


The series is titled "Welcome to Christ." Available from AF. Yes it was put togther by a joint group. Art Just was on the LCMS delegation.

Pezce, JOHN HANNAH, STS
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Benke

John Hannah was one of the first, maybe the first, to implement the RCIA model in the Atlantic District, with a wonderful catechist. If this is not under consideration by CPH, it should be. 

I just spoke with a deacon from the South Wisconsin District who is a member of the parish of a Pr. Peter Bender (LCMS).  They have a very complete catechetical series that gets marketed at various conferences - from my initial glance at it, it wouldn't fit the format of RCIA, but the material seems very thoroughgoing. 

We have some very creative folks on the topic and activity of spiritual formation in these parts, including a young PhD/Pastor who's a warrior-poet in the Christian sense named Dien Ashley Taylor up in the Bronx - I say "up" because I'm from Brooklyn.  For instance, and this is a great idea for urban mission with children/youth:
if we're going to invite kids to participate in the Holy Meal, they need to learn how to eat together as a community.  So at his (and I took this right over to my own group in Brooklyn) Youth Nite, which is Friday (because we don't have football, and because there's no homework the next day), after opening the group, there's always a meal, mostly made by one of the parishioners, for all to eat.  Eat as in eat at tables that are set, eat in a group, eat after prayer with conversation around that table, eat with those you care about and who care about you, eat food prepared for you by people who care about you. This is an essential in spiritual formation toward the Holy Meal.  And it's done because kids do not have a place where they participate in such meals in their lives, at least the kids Dien and I get to meet and love.  They eat on the run, they eat in front of a TV, they eat at separate times from the rest of the family, they eat conversing with the Flintstones, in some cases they eat to steer clear of the family, in some cases there isn't much of a family.  Where better to learn the etiquette of holy community dining than at church?  I think you might understand that this is not an easy process.  But that for us is a central aspect of the catechetics of Holy Communion.

Dave Benke

It's OK to Pray

grabau14

Quote from: ptmccain on November 09, 2007, 11:17:50 PM
Quote from: grabau14 on November 09, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
There is no difference between Arius and his vile filth and the what Spong passes off as Christianity.  Lord, have mercy.

Actually, Arius did not deny many of the things that Spong does!

Quite Right!  But both create doubt and confusion concerning the Second Article.  The only difference is that I am unaware of any hymns that Spong produced.  So in that way Arius is worse because music can spread the lies quicker than the spoken word,

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither   SSP

ptmccain

Quote from: grabau14 on November 10, 2007, 11:43:29 AMQuite Right!  But both create doubt and confusion concerning the Second Article.  The only difference is that I am unaware of any hymns that Spong produced.  So in that way Arius is worse because music can spread the lies quicker than the spoken word,

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither   SSP

Absolutely, Matthew. I was merely observing that even Arius did not deny many of the things that Spong does. That's why the shrugging, "Who cares?" some display toward Spong's apostasy is even more disturbing. And the fact that Spong is a bishop in good standing in the ECUSA and, by right of full communion, similarly in the ELCA is even more cause for the gravest of concern. But, I'll grant your point. At least Spong has not taken up hymn writing.

LutherMan

Quote from: ptmccain on November 10, 2007, 11:52:49 AM
But, I'll grant your point. At least Spong has not taken up hymn writing.

Thankfully.  Or some "christians" could very well be singing "Jesus Christ didn't Rise Today" on Easter Morning...

John Dornheim

Quote from: LutherMan on November 10, 2007, 12:17:34 PM
Quote from: ptmccain on November 10, 2007, 11:52:49 AM
But, I'll grant your point. At least Spong has not taken up hymn writing.

Thankfully.  Or some "christians" could very well be singing "Jesus Christ didn't Rise Today" on Easter Morning...

I don't see that one in ELW. Perhaps it is in Missouri's new book?

John Dornheim

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: LutherMan on November 10, 2007, 12:17:34 PM
Thankfully.  Or some "christians" could very well be singing "Jesus Christ didn't Rise Today" on Easter Morning...
So, we "christians" should sing it on every day but Easter morning?
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

ptmccain

On the other hand, anyone who does not actually believe Christ's dead corpse came back to life should not be singing "Jesus Christ is Risen Today."

Correct?

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: ptmccain on November 10, 2007, 12:29:48 PM
On the other hand, anyone who does not actually believe Christ's dead corpse came back to life should not be singing "Jesus Christ is Risen Today."

Correct?
Correct. Nor should they be confessing the Creeds.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

ptmccain


peter_speckhard

Quote from: Dave Benke on November 10, 2007, 09:04:50 AM
John Hannah was one of the first, maybe the first, to implement the RCIA model in the Atlantic District, with a wonderful catechist. If this is not under consideration by CPH, it should be. 

I just spoke with a deacon from the South Wisconsin District who is a member of the parish of a Pr. Peter Bender (LCMS).  They have a very complete catechetical series that gets marketed at various conferences - from my initial glance at it, it wouldn't fit the format of RCIA, but the material seems very thoroughgoing. 

We have some very creative folks on the topic and activity of spiritual formation in these parts, including a young PhD/Pastor who's a warrior-poet in the Christian sense named Dien Ashley Taylor up in the Bronx - I say "up" because I'm from Brooklyn.  For instance, and this is a great idea for urban mission with children/youth:
if we're going to invite kids to participate in the Holy Meal, they need to learn how to eat together as a community.  So at his (and I took this right over to my own group in Brooklyn) Youth Nite, which is Friday (because we don't have football, and because there's no homework the next day), after opening the group, there's always a meal, mostly made by one of the parishioners, for all to eat.  Eat as in eat at tables that are set, eat in a group, eat after prayer with conversation around that table, eat with those you care about and who care about you, eat food prepared for you by people who care about you. This is an essential in spiritual formation toward the Holy Meal.  And it's done because kids do not have a place where they participate in such meals in their lives, at least the kids Dien and I get to meet and love.  They eat on the run, they eat in front of a TV, they eat at separate times from the rest of the family, they eat conversing with the Flintstones, in some cases they eat to steer clear of the family, in some cases there isn't much of a family.  Where better to learn the etiquette of holy community dining than at church?  I think you might understand that this is not an easy process.  But that for us is a central aspect of the catechetics of Holy Communion.

Dave Benke
This sounds like an excellent program. Ironically, though, the original Passover "eat it in haste, etc." sounds more like what the kids are used to and less like the family meal described. How do we balance the "family meal" aspect of things (with a table) and the "blood of the covenant" "for the forgiveness of sins" aspect of things (with an altar)? Sometimes the two seem to clash.

ptmccain

I would, in fact, like to publish this kind of approach to catechesis.

The problem with the last effort the Synod was involved in was that it was too much of a focus on liturgical rites and rituals than the content of catechesis, a problem that has also plagued the RC program.

"Augstine and Catechumenate" is a masterful book written by Bill Harmless, S.J. When I spoke to him about the book he was passionate about what he perceived to be one of the major failings of the Roman catechetical model: too much ritual, not enough teaching.


pr dtp

If I may offer a third option for adult catechisis, and perhaps it has been tried in other places.  It works here.

My groups start out with the SC to be discussed in class, with complimentary assigments from the LC.  We work throug it, as long as it takes.

Then using TLH p 15 (the new group starting in 2 weeks will use DS III from LSB) we walk through the liturgy in about 3-4 hours, explaining where the parts come from, and why they are there.  I will use a couple of tools to assist with this, including some handouts from a well known HT speaker, and a brief selection of points  from Walther's Proper Distinction.

I had one group (mostly people with MA's, MBA's and a PhD from UCLA) go through it in 14 hours, another group took nearly 30.  I don't care how much time, and I have found neither do the people.

Long range, it seems they are becoming the strength of my church, and one is working towards being a deacon, assisting me with outreach and assimilation.

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