Diocese of Pittsburgh to vote on leaving TEC

Started by Marshall_Hahn, November 02, 2007, 02:35:02 PM

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GoCubsGo!

#135
Quote from: John Dornheim on November 09, 2007, 04:56:33 PM
Rome survives because it has fairly well perfected the guilt trip. Perhaps part of Rome's shortcomings in Latin America has more to do with its rejection of the Romeros of the church. In our growing Latino ministry, the overwhelming majority are Roman Catholics and while they might hold to a sacramental presence, many are unwilling to commune.
In the US, homiletics is almost an elective in many RC seminaries. Even when we had a significant amount of RC seminarians from St. Louis in the classroom, you could see that they were light years behind us.
John Dornheim

How kind of you to say that Rome has perfected the "guilt trip", John.  The Lutherans don't lay guilt on people?  (Especially those revisionist who say that by not embracing homosexuality I am condoning violence towards GLBTers or even promoting suicide...) And I don't see Rome as rejecting Romero.  Sometimes the RCC has failed to be the Church it is called to be in Latin America, I will grant you.  But the same could be said of a Lutheran Body that fails to reject homosexual behavior, feminist/idolatrous theology, and the shift towards Church Growth/prosperity gospel.

I agree that Roman Catholic priests in general are not good preachers.  For years preaching was not emphasized although post V-II this is slowly changing.  But despite the bad preaching, and the theologically suspect issues of the RCC it is much better than many of the so called enlightened and "gospel inspired" denominations present in North America.

Addressed to Md Brian:
And I wonder, if a person leaves the ELCA or LC-MS for Rome would they be a "recovering" Lutheran?  (That rhetoric is not helpful.)

John Dornheim

I am not absolving Lutherans of instilling guilt, they haven't perfected it, for the most part. And I think that your reading of the church's response to Romero and his priests is in error.

John Dornheim

grabau14


I will grant you that mainline Protestant demominations are in decline but Rome and the East are not.  Attendance is up accross the board in those tradtions.  Especially in the high liturgical Roman parishes where the Latin Mass is offered.

I think Protestantism has failed simply because it doesn't stand for anything.  Sola Scriptura; Yippee.  Higher Criticism and all sorts of methods have destroyed the church in so many ways.  It's no wonder that Athiests like Hitchens use the same arguments that the "faithless" critics do. (But that is besides the point).

When I talk to Lutheran/Baptist/Episcopalian/non-Christians who have all gone to Rome through some sort of "conversion" experience they have found a church that teaches the faith (in their opinion) as well as stability.  They can't say that about the many Protestant churches who latch onto all the fads out their.  (Did you see that Willow Creek repents for what they have done?)

It is no wonder that the disenfranchised children of aging hipsters who turned the church into a concert are going to the Emergent Church because they see "back to basics" and are teaching something and therefore it is seen as stable.  Now as good Lutherans or ECs we should say the the Emergent Church is not truly teaching anything, after all there is no hell and therefore no need for atonement.  But the Protestants who have turned the church into a show, taught in Bible Class things like Jesus wasn't really born of a Virgin, etc.. have reaped what they have sown. 

But the Roman Church has done a very good job in recent years in teaching the faith.  A recent convert friend of mine showed me his RICA materials and how indepth it is.  They are teaching the faith, practicing it in the Mass.  I can't say the same thing about many of our Protestant brothers; heck, I know several older and younger Missouri pastors that do the equivalent of 1 week membership class which mainly entails a tour of the facility.  That makes me sick.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither   SSP

Dave_Poedel

We all love our anecdotes, and I love this one I heard this week from a dear friend/prayer partner who is also a rather liberal ELCA Pastor: a Roman Catholic family joined the congregation he serves because, according to the dad of the family "the new Bishop (RC) is making the Church too conservative and emphasizing all of that old fashioned stuff, making it hard for old social liberals like us".

LutherMan

Quotea Roman Catholic family joined the congregation he serves because, according to the dad of the family "the new Bishop (RC) is making the Church too conservative and emphasizing all of that old fashioned stuff, making it hard for old social liberals like us".
Pr. Poedel,
Which part of the anecdote warmed your heart?  That the bishop is restoring conservatism, or that the old social lib' found a comfortable church home in the ELCA parish?

Dave Benke

More and more of our Atlantic District parishes use the RCA format for adult baptismal instruction and preparation for first Holy Communion, including - because this is the Atlantic District - trained lay catechists, the book which is signed by all the baptizands/instructees including the Bishop's signature, and of course the Vigil of Easter.  During Holy Week, cognregations gather for a Eucharist at which the Bishop blesses the oils for use on that Vigil and through the year by those catechumens, baptizands and for the sick.   

Dave Benke

It's OK to Pray

ptmccain

#141
Back to Spong.

Why is that some people shy away from rejecting and condemning his apostasy, washing their hands of it and, in effect, just putting their head in the sand about it, but are quick to denounce in no uncertain terms anyone whom they regard as conservative or "fundamentalistic"?




LutherMan

Because some Lutherans may be embracing apostacy, too? :o

John Dornheim

Quote from: LutherMan on November 09, 2007, 08:24:12 PM
Because some Lutherans may be embracing apostacy, too? :o

Because some Lutherans would rather speak in a voice of love rather than one of hate?
John Dornheim

LutherMan

Yes, I suppose The Rev. Stacy Boorn speaks "in a voice of love" doesn't she?

http://www.herchurch.org/

Brian Stoffregen

I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

hansen

Quote from: John Dornheim on November 09, 2007, 08:44:23 PMBecause some Lutherans would rather speak in a voice of love rather than one of hate?

Yes, I'm sure that the participants at FreeRepublic can feel your love.  A few recent quotes of yours:

QuoteIt is unfortunate that this sorry list is still breathing.

Now I know why some people are terrified of clowns.

grabau14

Quote from: John Dornheim on November 09, 2007, 08:44:23 PM
Quote from: LutherMan on November 09, 2007, 08:24:12 PM
Because some Lutherans may be embracing apostacy, too? :o

Because some Lutherans would rather speak in a voice of love rather than one of hate?
John Dornheim

My how we use the word "Love" alot.  I believe speaking the truth publicly is the ultimate act of Love, Here I Stand and all that jazz.  I think that some who use the word "Love" do so to hide their cowardice in not speaking the truth.  I think the Bible has something to say about being luke warm.  It is loving to call someone to repentance and faith.  Or have the courage to defend the heresy that Bishop Spong teaches.  But don't be luke warm.

And it is also a matter of confession to speak the truth.   I'm sure Athanasius and company would have loved to have you there.  No, no don't call Arius a heretic, it's not loving, let him continue to poison the church.  There is no difference between Arius and his vile filth and the what Spong passes off as Christianity.  Lord, have mercy.

Rev'd. Matthew J. Uttenreither  SSP

GoCubsGo!

Quote from: John Dornheim on November 09, 2007, 08:44:23 PM
Quote from: LutherMan on November 09, 2007, 08:24:12 PM
Because some Lutherans may be embracing apostacy, too? :o

Because some Lutherans would rather speak in a voice of love rather than one of hate?
John Dornheim

When I talk of God's intention for human sexuality and how that intentiion conflicts with homosexual behaviors, I am speaking with a voice of love.  When I correct someone for teaching, preaching and praying in the name of "God our Heavenly Mother, I am speaking with a voice of love.  When I ask a couple to live apart before they get married, I am speaking with a voice of love.  When I speak the truth I am speaking with a voice of love.  The voice of love sometimes embraces and sometimes chides and corrects.  True love is not tolerating unacceptable behaviors and actions but is rather challenging those behaviors.  As a "pastor", John, you should know better. :(

John Dornheim

Quote from: GoCubsGo! on November 09, 2007, 09:49:28 PM
Quote from: John Dornheim on November 09, 2007, 08:44:23 PM
Quote from: LutherMan on November 09, 2007, 08:24:12 PM
Because some Lutherans may be embracing apostacy, too? :o

Because some Lutherans would rather speak in a voice of love rather than one of hate?
John Dornheim

When I talk of God's intention for human sexuality and how that intentiion conflicts with homosexual behaviors, I am speaking with a voice of love.  When I correct someone for teaching, preaching and praying in the name of "God our Heavenly Mother, I am speaking with a voice of love.  When I ask a couple to live apart before they get married, I am speaking with a voice of love.  When I speak the truth I am speaking with a voice of love.  The voice of love sometimes embraces and sometimes chides and corrects.  True love is not tolerating unacceptable behaviors and actions but is rather challenging those behaviors.  As a "pastor", John, you should know better. :(

Joe,
Just because you might doesn't mean that all others do, as well.
John Dornheim

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