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#21
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
Last post by SomeoneWrites - Today at 02:27:49 PM
Quote from: Rob Morris on Today at 12:58:50 PMBusy couple of days, so this has to be brief...
Understood, so my thanks is even greater. 

Quote from: Rob Morris on Today at 12:58:50 PMFor starters, when you jumped in with Pastor Stoffregen's comparison, it wasn't clear to me that you were intending a different point than his (which I will in its turn try to carve out time to address). I have frequently used Tolkien or, even more often, JK Rowling, as an analogy for how an author can create entire worlds with complete authority. Also for how an author is not bound by the timeline of his/her characters, but exists on a different plane entirely. This is a salutary comparison to make (when acknowledging its limitations).
I think we're on the same page. 

Quote from: Rob Morris on Today at 12:58:50 PMWhere it becomes offensive is if the limitations are ignored and the simple comparison is made between Scripture and fiction. That renders the ancients as nothing more than ignoramuses and fools. Foolishness and ignorance are far easier found nearer to home.
Understood.  I've never had it to where the authors are foolish idiots, explicitly or implicitly.  I can say that several wrote about things they didn't know about, and my position is that the human writers incorporated myth into their text.  It's a narrative that is written to explain origins.  That's not a derogatory statement, and it doesn't insinuate malice or ineptness.  Assuming God is real, this also makes sense to me. 

Quote from: Rob Morris on Today at 12:58:50 PMNot wishing to relitigate the 1:1 debate. My point remains (and to recap for Pr. Benke, who saw something on TikTok to the contrary) - there is no other way to simply state "In the beginning, God created..." than what we currently see in the text. There would be myriad ways to state something different if that were the author's intent. To make "bereshith" be construct requires ignoring the preposition, as there is zero evidence of that form ever occurring anywhere. The bar to prove an esoteric reading is nowhere near met. I said it over and again, if the verse read, "In the morning, Abraham rose..." not a single scholar would have raised a single question. No one would ever translate it as, "In the morning of when Abraham had already arisen but was still continuing to arise." Asking for further proof is like asking for proof that the sky is blue (for Pastor Stoffregen's sake I will specify: a cloudless, daytime sky at the equator in the absence of an eclipse or other cataclysm as beheld by someone who is not colorblind nor using some other language or dialect to describe the color ;) ). Other than looking at the sky and looking at a color swatch marked blue, what further evidence should be provided? The burden of proof is on the one seeking a different explanation.
I think we've discussed this.  The non-traditional reading of "beginning" is plausible, pointable, readable, supported by scholarship - and most importantly - doesn't have any effect on the historicity of Genesis at all. For you and I, it's a side conversation for funzies.  The opening could read, "This is a written history of the world" and I would still take it as a myth from a well meaning human author - and for this coversation, an author moved by the spirit of God to provide a relatable account for humans to receive in that era, with the purpose of leading them to Jesus. 

Quote from: Rob Morris on Today at 12:58:50 PMI would be fascinated to hear your theories on demon influence as hinted in your message. Ever in CT?

I might not have been clear in what I was saying - I was sharing that, while I don't appreciate when Christians say I'm influenced by (or possessed by) demons, I can try and understand where they're coming from. 

If I'm ever nearby, I would enjoy conversation very much.
#22
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Satire Does It Ag...
Last post by John Mundinger - Today at 02:24:03 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on Today at 02:06:25 PMMr. Mundinger, have you ever considered the possibility that you are being judgmental toward others and that this keeps you from understanding what they are really trying to say?  Perhaps if you applied to yourself the requirement of the Eighth Commandment that you apply to others you would gain a better understanding of what others, especially those with whom you may not agree, are saying.

Yes.  I also have seriously considered the fact that, although that post might not accurately reflect Hans Fiene's perspective, it certainly is consistent with the attitudes of many who have mindlessly bought into the MAGA agenda.
#23
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Satire Does It Ag...
Last post by John Mundinger - Today at 02:20:10 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on Today at 02:14:02 PMThat you honestly believe those statements is funnier than any satire could be. If Hans Fiene said, "People like John Mundinger believe anyone who is not "woke" is oblivious to how our society is at odds with the commandment to love the neighbor and that anyone who is not progressive believes that white Americans are superior to everyone else," you'd be insulted that he was putting ridiculous and inflammatory ideas in your mouth. I don't think you actually believe either of the statements you made above about woke and progressive and their opposites.

That you are oblivious to the measure of truth in those statements causes me to wonder the degree to which your faith informs your politics vs. the degree to which your politics informs your faith.
#24
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
Last post by Charles Austin - Today at 02:15:00 PM
Peter:
I don't know of anyone who has said that people who do not take Genesis literally are therefore damned or somehow outside the Christian faith no that basis alone
Me:
Then you have never read what Rolf Preus or similar fundamentalists post here. To question Genesis is to question Jesus himself, he says. He's your guy. If he's wrong, you correct him.
#25
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Satire Does It Ag...
Last post by peter_speckhard - Today at 02:14:02 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on Today at 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on Today at 12:01:11 PMThe bias is not implicit, it is explicit. Did you think Hans Fiene just wanted to make a funny video and his conservative views happened to affect the content? He thinks the people he is lampooning are wrong in what they believe. He is up front about that.

Apparently, he thinks the people he is lampooning are "woke".  In the current context, the opposite of "woke" is to be oblivious to the reality of the many ways in which our society intentionally is at odds with the commandment to love the neighbor.  I Hans Fiene also advocating to move the LCMS headquarters from St. Louis to Tallahassee?

Apparently, he also thinks the people he is lampooning are "progressive".  In the current context, the opposite of "progressive" would be regressive - advocating an attitude that Americans, at least white Americans, are superior to everyone else; that people of color and people of are gender non-conforming do not really deserve equal opportunity; that women are subordinate to men; that wealthy are more worthy than the poor; etc.
That you honestly believe those statements is funnier than any satire could be. If Hans Fiene said, "People like John Mundinger believe anyone who is not "woke" is oblivious to how our society is at odds with the commandment to love the neighbor and that anyone who is not progressive believes that white Americans are superior to everyone else," you'd be insulted that he was putting ridiculous and inflammatory ideas in your mouth. I don't think you actually believe either of the statements you made above about woke and progressive and their opposites.
#26
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Satire Does It Ag...
Last post by RF - Today at 02:10:04 PM
Self observation and self remembering are apparently not universal gifts.
#27
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Satire Does It Ag...
Last post by RDPreus - Today at 02:06:25 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on Today at 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on Today at 12:01:11 PMThe bias is not implicit, it is explicit. Did you think Hans Fiene just wanted to make a funny video and his conservative views happened to affect the content? He thinks the people he is lampooning are wrong in what they believe. He is up front about that.

Apparently, he thinks the people he is lampooning are "woke".  In the current context, the opposite of "woke" is to be oblivious to the reality of the many ways in which our society intentionally is at odds with the commandment to love the neighbor.  I Hans Fiene also advocating to move the LCMS headquarters from St. Louis to Tallahassee?

Apparently, he also thinks the people he is lampooning are "progressive".  In the current context, the opposite of "progressive" would be regressive - advocating an attitude that Americans, at least white Americans, are superior to everyone else; that people of color and people of are gender non-conforming do not really deserve equal opportunity; that women are subordinate to men; that wealthy are more worthy than the poor; etc.

Mr. Mundinger, have you ever considered the possibility that you are being judgmental toward others and that this keeps you from understanding what they are really trying to say?  Perhaps if you applied to yourself the requirement of the Eighth Commandment that you apply to others you would gain a better understanding of what others, especially those with whom you may not agree, are saying.
#28
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Satire Does It Ag...
Last post by Weedon - Today at 02:03:33 PM
John, John. Seriously? I can promise you that Hans doesn't believe that white americans are superior; you know SQUAT about his love of the neighbor (as we know squat about yours). And yes, I can assure you, that he does think self described "gender non-conforming" have been sold an evil bill of goods. They have been!
#29
Your Turn / Re: Yes, they do live among us...
Last post by John Mundinger - Today at 02:03:17 PM
Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on Today at 12:46:04 PM
Quote from: Rob Morris on Today at 12:43:22 PMIs the concern about the service being led by elders? I can say that has had to happen often in the further reaches of the synod where retired pastors are hard to find for vacant congregations.

Understood. That's not the case here. And on one of the three major holy days?

Could it be that you are upset because they have not engaged you to provide supply?
#30
Your Turn / Re: Lutheran Satire Does It Ag...
Last post by John Mundinger - Today at 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on Today at 12:01:11 PMThe bias is not implicit, it is explicit. Did you think Hans Fiene just wanted to make a funny video and his conservative views happened to affect the content? He thinks the people he is lampooning are wrong in what they believe. He is up front about that.

Apparently, he thinks the people he is lampooning are "woke".  In the current context, the opposite of "woke" is to be oblivious to the reality of the many ways in which our society intentionally is at odds with the commandment to love the neighbor.  I Hans Fiene also advocating to move the LCMS headquarters from St. Louis to Tallahassee?

Apparently, he also thinks the people he is lampooning are "progressive".  In the current context, the opposite of "progressive" would be regressive - advocating an attitude that Americans, at least white Americans, are superior to everyone else; that people of color and people of are gender non-conforming do not really deserve equal opportunity; that women are subordinate to men; that wealthy are more worthy than the poor; etc.
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