News:


Main Menu
Menu

Show posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Show posts Menu

Topics - RogerMartim

#21
Your Turn / ALPB
April 20, 2013, 07:42:07 PM
When I typed in alpb.org tonight I got a completely different site. Something to do with real estate and a smiling woman. I did it over and over again. I had to BING my way into here. Are any of you having this problem?
#22
Your Turn / Prayers for the Families in Newtown, CT
December 14, 2012, 11:11:50 PM
Why do we allow assault and semi-automatic weapons to go into the hands of the general population in the first place? What use are they? Do you want to have a semi-automatic? Do you want your neighbor to have one?

My heart breaks for those families in this season when we sing, "Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth to all of goodwill." It's going to ring hollow for a lot of folks this Christmas 2012.

I hope that the ELCA, LCMS, WELC and all the other Lutheran churches speak out strongly that there needs to be some control of certain kinds of weaponry getting into the wrong hands. We do it at the international level that atomic/nuclear weaponry do not get into the hands of irresponsible countries/people. Why not in our neighborhoods?

The adage that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is getting old and trite.
#23
I love the Advent season. The hymnody of the four weeks cannot be surpassed; the lessons and Gospel texts are rich in meaning.

Yet today I attended church and the trees were up with its baubles and the nativity scene was in the church yard. Thank goodness the paraments were kind of a bluish-purple in color.

It gets worse.

The entire Liturgy of the Word was scratched even though its layout was in the bulletin. The service started with a two-three minute homily. Then there was the procession of a massed choir to the front and the service became a concert of some 35-40 minutes - a Christmas cantata (mind you, not of the Bach caliber). The music and its texts were so insipid. I can't remember the full name of the cantata now but it had the words 'a-comin' in its title. It might be a fun cantata for a Sunday School to perform in its due time which would be anytime after the celebration of the Fourth Sunday in Advent.

Normally there is always an applause and I expected it at the end of the performance this morning but there was none. I think that's how bad it was.

Why don't pastors take the bull by the horn and whip the worship and music committee into line? Or do the pastors blur the line between the two seasons?

Instead of the 12 days of Christmas, we now celebrate 35-36 days of Christmas until January 6 -- not far behind the shopping centers.
#24
Your Turn / Yesterday...
November 23, 2012, 08:03:28 PM
...my sister and I were traveling through Southeastern Minnesota. We had our Tom Turkey dinner at my sister-in-law's. Then we went to my brother's farm for pumpkin and minced meat pies. Of a distance of some 30-35 miles and through small towns, we passed by a lot of Lutheran churches and we tried to note whether they are ELCA or LCMS. In many small towns both are across the street from one another. Passing by St. John's, I noted that it was ELCA and and she said, "No, it's LCMC." I guess my eyes weren't quick enough. My sister asked me what was LCMC. I couldn't tell her.

What a sad state of affairs that the Lutheran Church is dividing into so many acronyms that can't be kept track of. I am assuming much of it is the divide that has mostly to do with one's political and even progressive sexual views, especially those views that have to do with homosexuality. Rather than discussion, we wallow in an alphabet soup of maddening acronyms.
#25
Your Turn / Abortion and Politics
August 27, 2012, 07:49:24 PM
I know that it is impossible to separate the issue of abortion from politics but I dearly wish it could be.

I am as pro-life as I can be, but I simply can't abide by the ignorance that is displayed by some politicians on this issue.

Of course, I am referring to the recent remarks made by Congressman Todd Akin from Missouri in which he said that a woman's body shuts down during a "legitimate" rape and her chances of becoming pregnant is minimized. (For the record, the pregnancy rate among women who are raped is the same as that of consensual coitus.)

Some might say that this is a deluded remark by one person, but unfortunately there are many who have expressed themselves in very uncharitable ways and these are used to garner votes.

I would not want Todd Akin to speak for me if he were running for senator in my state. If he can say something as stupid as that, in what other areas of life might he say or do that would impact on me and others which could be subversive? (A judge in Texas suggested that there will be a civil war if Obama is re-elected again. While perhaps not connected to the issue that I am talking about here, it is this same over-heated rhetoric by politicians that is further splitting us as a country.)

Of the pro-choicers, their arguments are distressing too but not any less than those of the pro-lifers. Both ends of the spectrum in this divide use emotional arguments and tactics which makes me want to say that it's time to take abortion out of politics. Roe v. Wade is not going to go away and the current SCOTUS will not touch it with a 10-foot pole.

I know I am being naive but the current modus operandi is not working and it is further dividing us as a people of these United States. We need to find areas of agreement rather than passing off anathemas every which way.

Where is faith in action, faith in love?
#26
Your Turn / EWTN
August 08, 2012, 06:10:27 PM
Occasionally I watch EWTN which I consider a far better option than Trinity Broadcasting Network.

Almost invariably I hear the consecrated bread and wine being referred to as the "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" of Christ. It used to be simply "Body and Blood."

I suppose that's OK if the RC Church wants to define the Real Presence in her own way, but somehow it just sounds a little verbose to me.

Does anyone know how this came about?
#27
Your Turn / Sola Scriptura
May 10, 2012, 06:18:30 PM
As a simple Lutheran layman I don't have the erudition that so many of you have and so I beg your pardon.

I am having trouble with the phrase sola scriptura as one of the few solas that the Lutheran Church subscribes to.

The canon wasn't formalized until a few centuries after the apostles. As it is stated in John 21:25, "Jesus did many other things as well. If everyone of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be writen."

Yet the Lutheran Church insists that our belief system is based on sola scriptura.

It is not a problem in the Roman Catholic Church as Tradition is every bit as doctrinal as the Bible, Oral Tradition, that is. Where is the line drawn when it comes to the Infallibility of the Pope; the Marian Doctrines; etc. Some of Lutheran practices relies on tradition but again, where is the cutoff point where we then come to say that it is sola scriptura.

Sorry that I am such an ignoramus. It can be confusing.
#28
Your Turn / Mitt Romney and Mormonism
April 23, 2012, 08:56:05 PM
It is well presumed at this point that Mitt Romney is going to be the Republican party's choice to run against Barack Obama in the General Election in November.

I don't know if it has been discussed in this Forum about Romney's Mormon faith, but it is probably worth reviewing again if it has. I am deeply troubled by the possibility that a Mormon could be moving into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Losing two dear friends to the LDS faith in the last few years and the Mormon church's underhanded, yet blatant involvement in the Proposition 8 amendment in California in 2008, I decided to check up on the Mormon religion and its teachings. With Google as our information friend, I perused both friendly and non-friendly sites. A particularly poignant and passionate site against Mormonism is exmormon . org. It tells sad stories, horror stories, disgusting stories and so on forth. As would be obvious, there has been lots of Romney stories and they aren't good. (The one sad thing about the above-mentioned site is that most Mormons who drop away do not seek out other Christian churches, but that they become ardent agnostics and atheists.)

A particularly perturbing story is that Mitt Romney is one of the very few Mormons who ever got the so-called "Second Endowment" in the Mormon temple. This is usually reserved for the very few upper-crust of those in Mormonism. The Second Endowment guarantees that a person's place in the Celestial Kingdom (the upper tier of the three heavens in Mormonism) has been guaranteed, no matter what follows, sort of the same dynamic that is subscribed by Born Again Evangelicals and Fundamentalists when they "accept" Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. (By the way, heavenly polygamy is still a doctrine in the Mormon church although it is no longer practiced here in the earthly life and so Ann Romney will have to share her husband in the after-life. Actual physical sexual intercourse is employed to produce "spirit" babies who will become future earthlings as Mormons believe in the pre-existence of all human beings.)

In the last several years, the Mormon church has down-played many of its unique doctrines to make them appear more mainstream with Christians. Mike Wallace and Larry King's interviews with the then President of the Mormon church, Gordon Hinckley on the question of God the Father was Adam, he changed course and said that it was more of a "couplet" than doctrine. According to many Mormon old-timers that was a shocking statement as they believed it was something that was always taught. Many Mormons left the church after those interviews.

Since Mormonism is such a "family-oriented" religion, if one leaves the faith they are shunned to the extreme. They are called apostates which is the worst that one can be called.

The underwear that Mormons wear called "garments" is a badge of faith. God cares about your underwear? Recently a dictum came out from the Utah headquarters that the Mormon faithful is to continue to wear the garments at all times. Apparently there has been a spate of Mormons who have been mowing their lawns in the hot Mormon Corridor summers without their garments and the church is reminding them that they should not.

Mitt Romney said that he cried when he heard on the radio in his car in 1978 when the President of the Mormon church lifted its ban on Black males in attaining the priesthood which all Mormon males are when they reach 18. Blacks were always considered the "Mark of Cain" for his sin. What is little known that around that time was that the NCAA threatened to throw out Brigham Young University out of the conference for its refusal to be more racially inclusive both academically and in intermural events. To be accepted the Mormon church had to change a major doctrinal point of their religion. Still the Mormon church is so homogenous that one would be pressed to find any person of color belonging to a church that only gives lip service to them.

One of the most hurtful and shunning things is in a mixed marriage or if one of the couple is an apostate and no longer has a temple "Recommend." (The Recommend is a bar-coded ticket that allows one into a Mormon temple. No Non-Mormon can enter it.) So if this couple has a son or daughter who is going to get married in the temple and one of the parent is not a temple Recommend, that person has to sit it out. You only get to smile for the wedding photographs outside of the temple.

Can a Lutheran Christian honestly vote for someone who is so at variance with the Christian faith? Yes, there is the separation of Church and State and that Romney's faith shouldn't be the criterium. But to me there is a catch. A candidate shouldn't be running for the presidency whose religion is entirely built on ever-changing doctrinally which bottom line are built on lies. Again, Romney has been taught to be a chameleon all his life. I am not sure I would want a flaky candidate like that. The moniker that he is a Flip-Flopper is not off the mark.

I could go on and on and on, but yet this is the strongly-held faith of Mitt Romney. I am sure he is an intelligent man but he has been taught all his life to be a liar in the promotion of his religion. Is this someone that we want in the White House no matter one's party affiliation? This goes to show that in his primary and caucus successes how little people really know about him and his "peculiar" faith as the Mormon folks like to label themselves as a "peculiar people," except that they don't like to consider themselves peculiar anymore as it doesn't look good for one of their own to be running for the presidency.

By the way, Ann Romney's father who was a die-hard atheist was posthumously baptized as a Mormon and so now he is in the Celestial Kingdom. Anne Frank and Daniel Pearl was recently baptized too which really caused a stink with those of the Jewish faith. Mitt Romney hasn't said a word about it.

Enough said.
#29
Your Turn / What's in a Name?
February 03, 2012, 08:38:18 PM
In this midwestern city we have some interesting names for parishes.

Among the older LC-MS churches there are Trinity, Grace, Redeemer, Christ, Holy Cross.

Among the older Wisconsin Synod churches there are Resurrection and Ascension.

The ELCA churches have Bethel, Mount Olive, Our Savior, Gloria Dei, Good Shepherd, etc.

The older Catholic parishes are St. Francis, St. John the Evangelist, St. Pius XII, St. Bridget.

The newer Catholic parishes are Pax Christi, Resurrection, Holy Spirit.

The newer ELCA churches are Hosanna!, People of Hope.

The newer LC-MS churches are Life, Family of Christ.

The newest Wisconsin Synod church is Christ Our Rock.

It is interesting that the Catholic Church are choosing more traditional and Gospel-centered names for their new parishes while the Lutheran churches are flying all over the board to be anything but traditional. Not that they are any less so in proclaiming the Gospel, but why all this new-fangled name playing? Incidentally, one of the LC-MS churches named above is nothing but short of trying to be a mega-church, pastor in a suit, a disproportionately long sermon, a choir that seems to be focused on entertaining, and the Eucharist regulated to "something we must do once in a while" kind of thing.
#30
Your Turn / Changes in the Roman Liturgy II
November 13, 2011, 08:39:55 PM
I had to smile that the thread on "Changes in the Roman Liturgy" changed focus so quickly. So, I am starting another thread to get it back in focus.

The simplest example of language change in the Mass that will start on the First Sunday of Advent is:
"The Lord be with you."

to

"And also with your spirit."

This of course is instead of:
"And also with you."

The Roman Church says that it is trying to use an English translation that is as close to the original Latin of the Mass. We Lutherans used to do this too with "And with Thy spirit."

There are other changes in the wording of the Mass that Lutherans will not be familiar with such as "Lord, I am not worthy..."  at the communion.

What say you all?
#31
Your Turn / Confirmation Nowadays
October 02, 2011, 08:21:32 PM
My mother was invited to her grand-niece's confirmation this afternoon (outside of the regular morning services). She asked me to go and I refused knowing what it would be like. She called me afterwards and was very upset.

Three-fourths of the confirmands had a goth look with pitch-black dyed hair, piercings galore, and one had a tattoo.

There was a rock band which played so loud that my mother's ears are still hurting two-three hours after the confirmation service.

There was a communion liturgy and these goth spectres of 13 and 14 years of age did the distribution. My mother did not go to communion. To her it has to be a mindset to which in this case she didn't feel anything spiritual. She reminds herself constantly that God doesn't care how we comport ourselves but if you end up in a state of shock over the triviality of how God is worshiped and none of the confirmands barely understand what it is all about, can we blame my mother?

Is there a future in the church with so many people leaving in droves. Atheism is the fastest growing "religion" nowadays. Kids are not being taught the basis of the Christian faith except through the fringe edges of modern culture and that is a weak link.

I decided to go to a different church today and I was disappointed that there was a bunch of women blowing on the stems of their tea pots flipping their hand up and down on the top of the tea pots giving a rendition of "Abide with Me." I am not sure whether it was my mother or I who had the worse worship experience.

I have a feeling I am going to end up in Rome. lol

#32
Your Turn / A Mormon for a President?
August 12, 2011, 04:50:00 PM
Last night on Fox News with the debate in Des Moines among the many and varied Republican hopefuls for the White House in 2012, how should a Lutheran consider the possibility of a Mormon leading our country? Should it be a consideration?

Not so sure about Jon Huntsman's orthopraxy with his Mormon faith, but Mitt Romney kind of scares me with his blind adherency to Salt Lake City. Unlike JFK and the Catholic issue with the Pope in the early 60s, Romney has to follow the dictates of the sitting Prophet to reach the Celestial Kingdom on the Planet Kolob somewhere. It's probable that the Prophet wil pull no punches to rock the boat but again, Romney is a blind follower of LDS.

Today it was posted that he and his wife's charitable giving were mostly to the LDS Church, the required 10 percent tithe. There was some to Multiple Sclerosis of which Mrs. Romeny suffers. The family is worth about 250 million.

What say you?

#33
...or are they all over the board?

I know liturgy and theology because of my 19 years of working in a Lutheran church office. I formatted bulletins and I knew every word that went into it. However, I don't think that I could have typed in these words as follows in the confession in a recent bulletin that I read online to keep in touch. it's been 14 years since I've worked at this church.

"Heavenly Father, you dwell within us in sighs too deep for words,
yet we do not hear you.
Caring Mother, you wrap us tenderly in fierce love,
yet we cannot touch you.
Brother Jesus, in you your self-sacrifice we know abundant grace,
yet we cannot see you.
Sister Spirit, you infuse our souls with your being,
yet our minds turn from you.
As the one who breathes life into us,
gather us up in the winds of your favor and redeem us
through Christ who loves us still."

I see so many things wrong with this. It besmacks of Gnosticism with its esoteric language (who's Caring Mother? who's Brother Jesus? who's Sister Spirit?) Instead of God's name which is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, we come up with four personages. Jesus is my brother?

I just do not understand all this playing around with words.

At this same church, the bulletin cover featured a Jesus with an obviously female head that looked like he came out of a Vidal Sassoon salon.

I just don't understand.
#34
Your Turn / The Filioque Phrase in the Creed
June 15, 2011, 01:14:04 PM
I am not sure if this has been discussed in this forum or not, but I am curious about the Nicene Creed in ELCA's hymnal, Worship where there is an asterisk attached to the phrase in the Third Article, "who proceeds from the Father and the Son," and then at the bottom of the Creed, *Or, "who proceeds from the Father." The phrase "and the Son" is a later addition in the creed. I know that this is a point of contention between the Western and Eastern churches. Is this an option now for the ELCA churches to recite the Or phrase rather than what we've been reciting all along for centuries? Wouldn't this be confusing to the average layperson who knows little about the Filioque controversy? Or is it simply a history lesson and is a hymnal the place to point this out?
#35
Your Turn / Science and Religion
January 10, 2011, 01:47:48 PM
Science and religion are not exactly bosom buddies. I read once that more scientists subscribe to atheism/agnosticism than not. It probably shouldn't be surprising given the inimical relationship between the two "belief" systems.

Since the Hubble telescope which roams the heavenly skies above Earth, galaxies upon galaxies (think billions) have been discovered. Hubble helped to verify for scientists that there was an event called "The Big Bang" some 13-14 billion years ago (Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.)

For many Lutherans Christians, no matter which branch, the scientific view of creation is rejected, relying instead on the 24/7 account of Genesis. This furthers the divide between the two systems. Rightly or wrongly, Science views believers as "flat-earthers" in that people refuse to give it credit for the many contributions it has made that has gone beyond being a "theory."

What is our responsibility as Lutheran Christians, especially in teaching our children, that while we strongly believe "In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth...", to keep insisting on the terrestrial limitations of the 24/7. Once beyond the Earth's gravitational zone, the 24/7 becomes moot and meaningless. Do we continue to flip the bird at science who by its very nature of the beast only goes by 1 +1 = 2? Do we make it an idolatry to insist that God who is timeless and eternal to be limited to our notion of time?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church notes: "The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers."

Cannot science and religion become allies to give glory to God the Creator? Of course, science has its own responsibility too in recognizing the "Cause" of our being. And we as believers must meet science in appreciating the ever-enhancing knowledge that it gives us to all the more glorify God.
#36
Your Turn / 'Tis the Season
December 01, 2010, 02:38:22 PM
I remember last year that I had wished a 'Merry Christmas' to a group of people at a social gathering. Admittedly it was a disparate group of folks but most were Christians of one stripe or another (at least I think they were). Later that evening I got a phone call from someone who was at the social event castigating me for my insensitivity. To be inclusive, I should have just said "Happy Holidays" or some such. While I am sensitive to the point that I would never say 'Merry Christmas' to someone who is Jewish or someone who is obviously not Christian, it is getting more and more difficult. What's it going to be to an individual that you are not sure about: Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Saturnalia, and God forbid, nowadays, Merry Christmas? At least I don't say a "Blessed Christmas" which I reserve for those I know to be on the same faith divide as mine. 'Seasons Greetings' or 'Happy Holidays' leave a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe it's just better to say "Good-bye" and not be bothered.

I think that I am safe to wish everyone here, albeit a bit early, a Blessed Christmas.
#37
Your Turn / What Are We As Lutherans?
September 19, 2010, 04:48:18 PM
I ask this question because I don't know where we are at.

This is my take:

As Uniquely Lutheran, I am sure that many respondents both on this board and outside would resonate to this. But what does this really mean? It doesn't answer the question to many outside of Lutheranism. To most we are just Protestants.

Evangelical Catholics is what many of us like to call ourselves, but no one else has any idea of what that means, whether they be Catholic or Protestant.

Protestantism is way too generic for Lutherans, but my mother who is Lutheran to the core would identify herself as a Protestant too. Protestantism runs the gamut of High Church Episcopalianism to Seventh Day Adventistism, each with their own emphases and in some cases, different as day and night.
#38
In the secular society it was a big day yesterday, especially in California.

If this decision goes all the way to the Supreme Court and upheld, how is that going to impact the Church?

For those who hold a sacramental view of marriage, I can see that this is going to be a big problem.

If marriage is simply a civil recognition of two people, the church doesn't even need to be involved.

I am not sure where I am at on this issue.
#39
I grew up in Missouri Synod in the Midwest. In early adulthood I moved away and lived in the DC area for 35 years and there I belonged to an ELCA church. I returned to the Midwest and started worshipping again at the church I grew up in.

I had forgotten the LC-MS practice of the celebrant moving off to the right side of the altar to consecrate the elements. There is a missal stand dead center of the altar which never has a book on it. I am not sure why it is there if it is never used.

Does anyone know how this practice originated and why it is still done this way? Is it something akin to avoiding any kind of sacrificial element that might creep in if the pastor were to say the Verba in the center of the altar?

#40
Your Turn / Liturgical Uniformity, An Illusion?
May 05, 2010, 05:50:34 PM
I realize that there is no such thing as liturgical uniformity within the Lutheran Church, no matter which branch.

I relocated to the Midwest nine years ago after several years on the East Coast. In all this time, I am still church-shopping. Part of the problem is that I am looking for a church that was similar to the one that I belonged to back East and I don't think that I am going to find it. The closest thing that I've come to is an Episcopal Church but quite simply I do not see myself as becoming an Episcopalian.

I believe that good liturgy requires all five senses; to be sure, some senses are utilized less than others. The reason I believe this is that I have a deficiency in one of my senses and so I have to rely on the others to make up for it. But I am digressing.

Whether it be the SBH, THL, LBW, LW, ELW or LSB (am I missing any here?), liturgical resources of the two main branches of American Lutheranism, there is a prescribed liturgy which gives us an identity as Lutherans, not to mention an identity with many other non-Lutheran churches. It used to be that a person could go to almost any Lutheran church and it would be the liturgy from one of the worship resources listed above.

Recently I went to an LC-MS church here in my city that I had never been to. There was absolutely nothing recognizable about the service. The pastor did not wear any vestments and was only in a suit and tie (actually a sports coat and tie). The church had dispensed of its fine organ and in its place was a band with singers to accompany the completely unfamiliar hymns or songs as they are called. Some members of the "choir" looked they were wannabe entertainers each holding microphones. There were no pericopes assigned to the Sunday that I was there. There was only one reading which obviously was chosen by the pastor to preach on. He preached for about 45 minutes. There happened to be communion on that particular Sunday but it was merely a blip in the service, kind of like, oh, there's one more thing to do. Later on I found out from others that over half the congregation had left when this pastor started doing things the way he preferred. He was called to St. Louis for a hearing to discuss his unique style of worship but passed muster after a long and protracted review.

Then I went to my nephew's confirmation at an ELCA church. It was the same thing—completely non-liturgical. Decidedly it was a much more "liberal" church even within the ELCA for this part of the country. Although the hymnal was not used, as it rarely is, the hymnal that was in the pew racks (for lack of a better description as there are no pews) is that of the United Church of Christ. It looked remarkably similar to the LBW but its language is very inclusive. Again, there was no liturgy, the pastors did not wear vestments unless a suit and tie can be considered thus. My brother-in-law and several other people got up during the "Pastor's Talk" and went to the back to get a hot steaming cup of coffee to bring back to the seat. Again, there was the choir singing songs with its repetitive one-liners and splashed on a big overhead screen. It's almost not unlike reading Hallmark greeting cards. Again, communion was something like out of the ordinary but it is done anyway.

I could go on and on, but ironically there is a small church which is about ten miles from me. It holds the most promise as being faithful to the Lutheran liturgical tradition. It serves mostly the rural communities and many of the congregants there are farmers, even some wearing their bib overalls. On Ash Wednesday I went there for the noon service. I was intrigued to see that the pastor kept disappearing and I didn't know where he went, but as it turned out, he was jockeying back and forth between being the celebrant and the organist! As a poor church, it doesn't have the resources to "print everything out" in the bulletin. The hymnal is used to follow the liturgy and there was the communion liturgy which was followed in all its integrity and not at all hurried. To me, it was the proper distinction (or congruity) of Word and Sacrament.

I wonder if nowadays there isn't sort of a dependency on the bulletin that isn't overblown rather than the hymnal. In this way, it gives a "freedom" to do whatever. I know that the "Word" should be heard rather than following along in the bulletin, but I make an exception for that as hearing impairment is much more prevalent than realized, not to mention that the speaker doesn't always enunciate, and again, not to mention that some readers are drama kings or queens. But for goodness sakes, everyone is reading "The Lord's Prayer" rather than saying it. Why does that need to be printed? Does it take 50 or 60 years of your life that you need to still read the Apostles' or Nicene Creed? I see no heads uplifted in the proclamation of our faith. Rather I see noses buried in the bulletin.

Well, I better get off my soapbox but I'll be curious if any of you feel these same frustrations that I have been having.

RogerMartim
SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk