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Messages - Pilgrim

Christie Eleison.

I wonder if, since Charles and Brian presumably are supportive of this modernistic lunacy, just what would be the case if the ELCA truly went on the offensive in a much broader effort, pro-actively communicating this event via every means possible throughout the entire church as normative. Not just to clergy but to the faithful laity who presume that as long as things are alright here at St. Peter by the Gaspump we won't worry about it beyond our doors. What would happen if the ELCA used every means possible to declare to its constituents plainly, "This is who we are!"

I just wonder if such utterly open and honest promotion on the part of the ELCA would not result in another upheaval and outflow of folks, either as congregations or as individuals.

This is just so very sad. May God have mercy, indeed.

Your Turn / Re: Reforming Catholic Confession
September 21, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
Charles wrote: "And tell me, Pastor Kirchner, what you gain by condemning another person on this forum that way? What makes you the One who so mockingly dismisses the faith statement of another?"

And followed that up by saying: "As much as I dislike some of the people in the LCMS, their attitudes towards women, towards ecumenical relationship, towards the church in the modern world, I do not take it upon myself to declare them non-Lutheran."

(Tim wonders: No mocking going on there, is there?  :))

And then Charles added: "As much as I think a major stream of biblical interpretation in the LCMS crashes upon the rocks of either stupidity and/or fundamentalism, I do not declare them non-Lutheran."

Tim simply wonders if Charles thinks it is okay to declare something in the LCMS crashing upon the rocks of stupidity is okay (his obviously polite respectful opinion) so long as he does not declare them non-Lutheran?

Tim notes: I keep reading the forum, but somethings and some persons are unchanging for years and years and years.
Your Turn / Re: More Coptic Martyrs
April 11, 2017, 04:17:10 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 10, 2017, 03:35:05 PM
This outside observer contends that not only are there some in the LCMS who desire divisions, there are some who look for them, exploit them, and make themselves feel good about pointing them out.  If it weren't for division, disunity, and error, or the fear and suspicion of such, they wouldn't have anything to talk about. 
Such folk exist.

Tim notes: Sadly Charles, you appear to be most correct in this observation. My LCMS relatives thankfully find such "pharisaic" behavior sadly pathetic in a Church body that could, and often does, have much to offer the whole "catholic" Church. That some apparently do not have eyes to see...

Your Turn / Re: Anonymity
September 09, 2016, 01:37:55 PM
Pr. Bowler wrote,

[/quote]And there it is, the fruition of all these hysterical posts, excoriating the United List: the misunderstanding from those outside the synod that somehow the United List forcibly controls elections and conventions in the LCMS.  It is not the case, of course.  But it is natural when one reads here the one-sided, slanted complaints.  Thanks, Dr. Benke et al.  Thanks. 

Obviously we don't know each other. My only information regarding you is from what I read here. First, I didn't find the posts "hysterical", rather interesting. From an outsiders point of view LCMS politics have always appeared from here as often possessing a certain nefarious presence inappropriate to the Church of Jesus Christ. Not unlike those parish situations where some un-named and unaccountable group is circulating a petition and/or having secret meetings because their knickers are in a knot over some purported slight or behavior of the Pastor.

I don't perceive this conversation concerning the UL to truly be about their "being confessionally faithful" and therefore beneficial to the LCMS as much as their desiring to be "in control". Any real or perceived "threat", like actually behaving like mature human persons with names and accountability is therefore railed against and even defended. Mores the pity. And therein lies the problem. FWIW.
Your Turn / Re: Anonymity
September 08, 2016, 06:40:27 PM
Nothing earth-shattering, but as a non-Missourian, I've found this United List discussion most interesting. From an outside perspective, it is probably one of the least attractive features (to put the best construction on it) for any active Lutheran clergy from other alphabet soup of Lutheranism who may be thinking of seeking admission to the LCMS roster. It sounds like Richard Daley would be proud of this "machine". It has overtones of totalitarianism and thought police for those who might differ with the UL "party line". It is still possible to be "orthodox" and a part of the ELCA, although probably ostracized from leadership; but in the LCMS, to be "moderate" without a long-standing track record (and even with) may likely bring charges of heresy from some of the hard-liners. The LCMS clergy whom I know and have known, have a general habit of keeping their real views pretty close to the vest for that very reason.
Quote from: Charles Austin on September 02, 2016, 02:44:21 AM
In the half of my life I spent as a newspaper reporter, I dealt with public forums, and I dealt with confidential and background information. It ain't rocket surgery. If you speak up in a public forum, anyone anywhere has access to your words and a right to know who you are. On occasion someone who spoke out at a school board meeting would say "now don't quote me," to which I would respond, "then don't say it, because if I choose, I will quote you." They say "do you have to use my name," and I respond "ninety-five percent of the time, yes."
This is a public forum. We who are here have a right to know with whom we are speaking. The pastor with a vocational crisis should not be blurting out his or her doubts or insecurities here. I suppose there are private forums on the internet if one finds the need.
Or, in an extremely rare case, someone might be posting here without their name on the postings, but we have the right to know who "Tonto" is. Our right to honesty and openness in conversation overrides someone's personal need for anonymity.
But we digress.
It should surprise absolutely no one that the ELCA now has approved rites for same-sex unions. Carry on.

Pr. Tim Christ observes: Having a "handle", at least I think so, I tried to add a tab line years ago. Regardless, for all the times when I've thrown out bait, which Charles and Brian often took, and lead us down some rather interesting rabbit holes which were usually a waste of time, I must say that I do also believe Charles is spot on here. If you desire to opine, own it. Period. This is not the confessional.

Your Turn / Re: The ELCA version of the Creed
August 19, 2016, 02:14:23 PM
Dave: the only potential salvific advantage to clergy attire on the golf course is to wear a particularly "heavy" pectoral cross. It helps in keeping the head both steady and down!!!  ;)
Your Turn / Re: Marty Haugen's "Mass of Creation"
April 27, 2016, 09:45:54 AM
Marty was a classmate of mine in college. Personally, I've enjoyed his creativity. Having said that, I think the more important observation is "the music often ages poorly". Due to modern technology, we have the ability here to utilize multiple musical settings of the liturgy depending upon season, etc. The folks here find that it keeps the Ordo "fresh" and are quite familiar with each of the multiple settings we utilize.

Realizing that some music, in fact, "does age poorly", for me is an indication to always think liturgically in the "macro" sense - truly honoring and treasuring that which has long preceded my service and being constantly aware of what might sustain and enhance the ministry of those who will come after me, likely, long after me (should the Zombie apocalypse people be in error!).

An additional note is time of life: I am more deeply moved by the Nunc Dimities, in a variety of melodies, at this stage of my life than I could have ever imagined when I was in my 20s or 30s. I keep that in mind when exegeting my congregation in terms of our liturgy.


Pr. B.A. "Tim" Christ, STS
Your Turn / Re: Did you know that George Strait is LCMS?
February 26, 2016, 01:01:07 PM
Unless it has changed recently, he lives in The Dominion subdivision just north of SA off of I-10. My oldest son and family live in a subdivision across the highway and said there was talk George might be moving out to Cordillera Ranch outside of Boerne. Concordia Lutheran is not very far from where he lives. My wife and grandson usually attend there when they are heading to Camp Chrysalis at Kerrville since it times out about right for leaving early out of Houston, attending worship, grabbing lunch and arriving at Camp Sunday afternoon at about the right time. Large well-known congregation in San Antonio.
Quote from: Keith Falk on January 15, 2016, 08:41:43 AM
Or Trinity in Columbus, OH... or Southern in Columbia, SC

I'm sure it would come as quite a surprise to the folks living in the Bexley Mansions that Trinity was in an unsafe neighborhood! A bit to the west and south, perhaps, but unless the demographics have changed dramatically since I was there... just saying"!
Quote from: DCharlton on January 15, 2016, 10:05:14 AM
The critique of the elevation of the autonomous self has been going on for quite a long time, long before same-sex marriage was the cause of the day.  I was going to say at least since the 1970s, but I think it has been longer than that.

I would suggest you consider Genesis 3 as the primal source (sic)!
Your Turn / Re: Chapel at Concordia St. Paul
December 02, 2015, 04:44:20 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on December 01, 2015, 11:25:44 PM
What planet do you live on, Peter? Can you tell me any public controversy where the "side" who refuses to say anything gets its point across or wins any respect? (Unless the point is "We're secretive nut cases." But even they will be found out eventually.)

Charles, I might refer you to the scene in Matthew's Gospel, "But He gave him no answer, not even t5o a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed."   :D
Your Turn / Re: Why is the forum broken?
October 21, 2015, 06:46:20 PM
Mine is all messed up on Safari...

Whenever Charles does what he has done in the past few posts, I'm always reminded of the following quote from G.K. Chesterton: "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about." Methinks it sounds like far too often our New Jersey scribe falls into the latter grouping of said quote.

One of the pluses which is contributing to this issue is the fact that more and more parishes are celebrating weekly Eucharist, and, if there are not ordained retired clergy able to fill in for vacations, etc., it becomes problematic. It has been well over 20-years since I have conducted a worship that was not fully Word and Sacrament. The people I serve expect Word and Sacrament every Sunday. I've been fortunate to have some retired Pastors in the area most of my ministry, although there has been those rare occasions when the Eucharistic portion of the Sunday worship is "borrowed" from the occasional service of sharing the Eucharist with the homebound so that the faithful gathered are fed. Which side of the road does one wish to err on becomes the question. I may be wrong, but I tend to err on providing Word and Sacrament, but assuring that the elements have been consecrated the Sunday prior and are reserved for the vacation Sunday that follows.
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