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Messages - John_Hannah

#1
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
Yesterday at 11:08:25 AM
Quote from: David Garner on Yesterday at 10:04:00 AM
Quote from: John_Hannah on Yesterday at 09:09:19 AMDeacon Shelley,

Is the Patriarch of Alexandria the same as the Coptic Orthodox Church? The Coptic Church is centered in Alexandria.

Peace, JOHN

It is not.  The Patriarch of Alexandria is a canonical Orthodox Patriarch in communion with all the others.  The Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is in schism from the Orthodox Church at present, and has been for about 1500 years.  They refused to follow Chalcedon or any of the Councils after Chalcedon.  That schism is probably closer to being healed than any of the others, but I wouldn't say it's particularly close.

As an aside, the Patriarch of Alexandria and the Coptic Patriarch both use the title "Pope," along with the bishop of Rome, and always have.

I suspected such. Thanks.
#2
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
Yesterday at 09:09:19 AM
Deacon Shelley,

Is the Patriarch of Alexandria the same as the Coptic Orthodox Church? The Coptic Church is centered in Alexandria.

Peace, JOHN
#3
Shaw's report makes it convenient to identify an entity which gives us comfort to knock.

Peace, JOHN
#4
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 10, 2024, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: pearson on May 09, 2024, 10:40:10 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on May 09, 2024, 10:17:18 PMI'm more comfortable with the argument that established practice is based more in tradition than on Scripture.  And, while I respect tradition and I think it is reasonable to assume that the Church, as the Body of Christ, has been granted the authority to be establish and to revise traditions.  The challenge is how to exercise that kind of authority for the sake of the Gospel and while acting as the Church.  The latter half of that challenge has been made more difficult because sinful humans have fractured the Body of Christ.


Are we all in agreement here on what the concept "tradition" refers to?  Are "traditions" pretty much the same thing as "customs"?  (I think not.)  Are "traditions" pretty much the same thing as "practices"?  (Again, I think not.)  Does it make much sense to pit "Scripture" against "tradition"?  (Once again, I think not.)  Are these distinctions helpful in advancing our understanding of the theological and spiritual gifts we have been given?  (Well, I think so.)

Tom Pearson 

Tradition cannot be successfully pitted against Scripture. Nonetheless it is well to recall that it was bishops who determined the canon.

The exact practice of setting apart for ministry (or ministries) is only sketched in Scripture, Although in one instance we know that selection was by lottery. We actually rely on tradition (previous practice) for our conduct. For example seminaries, which are not in Scripture at all.
We do practice succession in our presbyteral succession.

Peace, JOHN
#5
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 09:04:01 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on May 09, 2024, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Weedon on May 09, 2024, 07:15:18 PMOf course we do! And all Christians cannot but speak the good news to each other! That's the priesthood of all believers in action. It is not, however, the office of the Holy Ministry, or the Predigtamt, of which, as I said, there is zero example in Scripture of a woman actually preaching.

Although the description of the event is not as dramatic, what the women did was not all that different than what Peter did on Pentecost.  To the extent that there might Scriptural examples of the Predigtamt, it would be Christ calling Paul and Christ commissioning the disciples.  But, Christ also commissioned to women to proclaim the resurrection  And, I'd note that several of the Scriptural references to disciples are not necessarily restricted to the 12 or to men.  Or, could it be that the Predigtamt is based more in the traditions of the early church than in Scripture?

Actual church practice or Bible? Good question. We know that church practice was from clear historical records and as the church grew in the early centuries the practice becomes more developed.

All by itself, the Bible gives, what seems to many Christians, only mere hints or nothing at all about the structure of ministry.

I think we in American Lutheranism would do well to re-set our discussion to include some authority to church tradition on church and ministry.

Peace, JOHN
#6
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 03:33:09 PM
Quote from: Weedon on May 09, 2024, 03:21:04 PMMy wife wears a veil in church. :)

Long ago, mine did also. Everyone did when I was in the seminary. Not long after, the practice fell out of vogue everywhere. Restored now by the traditionalist Latin liturgy folks.

Peace, JOHN
#7
Quote from: Weedon on May 08, 2024, 03:46:50 PMAs tomorrow is the Feast of our Lord's Ascension, a little OP in honor of the day (from The Pilgrim, p. 14ff.)

Now He was going home... In seven words the years of labor and sorrow end: "While they beheld, He was taken up."... There were no bells and banners on earth, but surely all the trumpets on the other side sounded as they never sounded before... Surely the chiming golden bells of heaven sang their welcome, and angel choirs intoned the song of the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdomand strength."... On the anvils of God the nails had been forged into the scepter of a king... "He was taken up"... The angel hosts sweep to either side, leaving the way clear to the Eternal Light that no longer blinds the eyes of us who stand gazing after Him... He leads a procession which comes from the ends of time and space, all the harvest of all the white fields the world has ever known, the pilgrims of the night who come at last to the dawn of an everlasting day... "He was taken up." The Child of the manger, the praying heart on the starlit lanes of Galilee, the hunger in the wilderness, the weariness of the Sychar Well, the tears of the Garden and the Hill, the thirst of the Cross - all over now... The robes of the Transfiguration once momentary, now clothe Him forever, and angels and archangels sound the great doxology of the Waiting Church: "Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever."...

An old story - perhaps too old for us to do more than glimpse its glory... And yet - we ought to remember it more clearly... It was the solemn moment in the story of God and man when the visible Christ became the invisible Christ... From that hour everything concerning Him became visible only to the eyes of faith... The final line of demarcation in the world - between those who believe and those who refuse to believe - was now clear... Men can say that all this is not true and use the mind of man to reject the mind of God, or they can know that God once walked among them and that they now have a Friend in heaven who knows all that earth and time and pain can do to man...

The Ascension did not take Jesus away... It brought heaven near... In the realm in which He now reigns time and space have no meaning... There is no up and down, no near and far, no darkness, and no distance in the world of faith... He is as near as yesterday's prayer, today's joy, tomorrow's sorrow... His homecoming has made heaven a home for us who still walk far from home... Wherefore stand we gazing into heaven?... Our momentary task is here, but through the slow dimming of the years we see the evening lamps of home tended by the pierced hands of Him who has gone to prepare a place for us... Is there a better way to live - or die? ... All that we have to do now is believe and follow:

The lapping of the sea of death before his feet
Crept near; the wind was wild;
But he, who knew the One he came to meet,
Saw it and smiled.

Stepping without a hesitating word
Into the icy tide,
As if he saw the footprints of his Lord
Gleam at his side,

Borne up by Love that gave as he had given,
He crossed the midnight foam
And laid his hand upon the door of heaven
Like one returning home.

(Divine Service tomorrow at St. Paul's at 8:20 a.m. and 7 p.m.)

You can't get any better than O.P. Kretzmann, former President of  Valparaiso University!

Peace, JOHN
#8
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 08, 2024, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on May 08, 2024, 11:26:35 AM
Quote from: Mark Brown on May 08, 2024, 10:56:11 AM
Quote from: John_Hannah on May 07, 2024, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on May 07, 2024, 07:16:09 PMTwo thoughts.  Lyman's survey makes sense simply because of the school data.  What have we been doing for 1-2 generations? Closing schools. "Too much money." "We can be witnesses in the public school." What have we been doing for 1-2 generations? Shrinking. Not catechizing.

If the LCMS wanted to steal a march, be ahead for once instead of behind, in all these red states that have passed ESAs we'd be funding schools.  You'd get three things hit with one stone.  You could address Concordia enrollment with actual job need. You could address congregational decline.  And you could address catechizing. And you could do it all while at least breaking even. It would be the highest return on investment we'd have since Loehe's sendlinge.

Of course the real problem is convincing the boomers who shut down all the schools who still run the congregations to reverse course and allow it.  Synod Inc should form a skunk-works, bring along any current congregation that wants to survive, and build school systems in every major ESA Red State metropolitan area.

As desirable as this remedy is, I'm afraid there is just not enough money anywhere to fund it.

Peace, JOHN

This is America, there is always money. If there is one thing we always have, it's money. (Look at the millions Michigan came up with in 2 weeks to "save" a Concordia.) The problem is always in Dantean terms insufficient love. Lack of will. Acedia. Leadership that wants the title and the office but not the authority to actually do anything. 

The money is already there.  It's just not in the pocket you want to empty.  There are 17 states that allow for non-public schools including parochial schools to tap into voucher programs, from those states.  Even though to the libertarian segment this is allowing the government into the bookkeeping end of the business (since they allow in most states for the teaching of religion as per the religious affiliation of the school), it's a workable option. 

Secondly, there's the charter option.  The WELS-related Eagle charters teach congregations to do a wrap-around, so the congregation takes the before and after school and adds religion courses.

In either of these options, I think the statistics would show good results for the congregation and its mission to families.

You went to your usual sub-plot, which is the boomers not caring about Lutheran schools, the main plot of which is that boomers are not good for the Missouri Synod.  Outvote them then, outflank them, bring in some new members in the 50 and under category and put them on the congregational boards.  They're not there in abundance, so get some abundance.  Bring in some non-geriatric sheaves.  If you want, fly me out and I'll do a workshop on that process.  I'm qualified because I'm over 75.


Dave Benke

Yes, vouchers can change things for the better. My guess is that the number of states offering vouchers will expand in the future.
#9
Quote from: JoshuaMc on May 08, 2024, 10:10:34 AM
Quote from: Weedon on May 06, 2024, 06:02:16 PMJosh,

Don't you think that distinction (and it's important) is actually built into the Symbols themselves? Clearly top tier: Ecumenical Creeds. Clearly next to top tier: Augustana "the symbol for our time". Clearly the rest of the Symbols: explications of the faith confessed in the Augustana. But I totally get why you'd say that Missouri seems to put them all on par; we don't usually rehearse that distinction. Still, I'd argue, from the Symbols it is intrinsic to them and the later Confessions are somewhat distorted when they are heard as something additional to the AC instead of its explication. And this is even true of the Tractatus, which I take as the flushing out of Melanchthon's rather cryptic Article XIV.

Will,

Totally agreed that the tiering is there. I like your insight that everything else in the symbols should refer back to the Augustana. Things get weird when the epitome or SD are read out of context.


That funkiness is something I'd point to as a Missouri idiosyncrasy. I've had a handful of conversations with Missouri pastor colleagues in which they said something along the lines of "but we really believe in the whole Book of Concord!" The emphasis is on the subscription to the book rather than the fundamentals of the augustana. This is just anecdotal though.

Josh



"That funkiness is something I'd point to as a Missouri idiosyncrasy. I've had a handful of conversations with Missouri pastor colleagues in which they said something along the lines of "but we really believe in the whole Book of Concord!!"

. . . as though non-Missourians actually reject it. It's a bad habit. Lacks the, "best construction" per the Catechism. Could it be that Missourians do not "really believe" the Small Catechism?

Peace, JOHN
#10
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 07, 2024, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: Weedon on May 07, 2024, 08:45:42 PMJohn,

For the Lutheran: "in doctrine and ceremonies we have received nothing contrary to Scripture or the Church universal." AC Conclusion. Women's ordination is contrary to both.

It seems to me that the changes were made fully in compliance with (Roman) canon law.

Actually those changes of the (conservative) Lutheran Reformation are more radical, although I am most grateful for those.

Peace, JOHN
#11
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 07, 2024, 08:38:00 PM
Quote from: Weedon on May 07, 2024, 08:07:39 PMDave,

Could or did women read lessons in the Roman Catholic congregations in the centuries prior to Vatican II? Could or did women distribute the Eucharist in Roman Catholic congregations in the centuries prior to Vatican II? Could or did women serve as Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers prior to Vatican II (did that even exist before Vatican II)? Could and did women serve in ministries of care and compassion including prayer before Vatican II, yes; but NOT bringing the Eucharist, no? What does it mean that Rome adopted changes in these areas, breaking with their solid prior tradition?

I did serve as a pastoral adviser to the deaconess conference and—would you believe it?—the topic never came up, because for most of us, it's not the big make-it-or-break it deal you like to pretend it is. Not ONE deaconess ever raised the question with me! I know I certainly don't find the blessing of their work among us restricted by their not reading lessons in the assemblies. Deaconess Kim is hardly one to pull any punches, and the whole time we worked together she never once complained about that to me. She was too busy doing, you know, her ministry! Which included helping certain spreadsheet challenged directors of worship.

WILL,

New and different does not make it wrong, even if it changes practice centuries old. The church has the authority to decide.

Peace, JOHN
#12
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 07, 2024, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on May 07, 2024, 07:16:09 PMTwo thoughts.  Lyman's survey makes sense simply because of the school data.  What have we been doing for 1-2 generations? Closing schools. "Too much money." "We can be witnesses in the public school." What have we been doing for 1-2 generations? Shrinking. Not catechizing.

If the LCMS wanted to steal a march, be ahead for once instead of behind, in all these red states that have passed ESAs we'd be funding schools.  You'd get three things hit with one stone.  You could address Concordia enrollment with actual job need. You could address congregational decline.  And you could address catechizing. And you could do it all while at least breaking even. It would be the highest return on investment we'd have since Loehe's sendlinge.

Of course the real problem is convincing the boomers who shut down all the schools who still run the congregations to reverse course and allow it.  Synod Inc should form a skunk-works, bring along any current congregation that wants to survive, and build school systems in every major ESA Red State metropolitan area.

As desirable as this remedy is, I'm afraid there is just not enough money anywhere to fund it.

Peace, JOHN
#13
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 07, 2024, 03:54:50 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 07, 2024, 03:17:52 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 07, 2024, 02:10:56 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on May 07, 2024, 01:50:39 PMHere's the Bible part, RD.  Acts 2:17-18 with ascription to the Prophet Joel as well:

16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 "'In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
    and they will prophesy.




Do you think your friend from 50 years ago might have read that passage?  Didn't God allow Peter to speak those words and Luke to put them in the Bible and allow Peter to speak what Joel said and Luke to write it down including "both men and women," and "daughters" prophesying? 

When you say "God wouldn't allow her to do what He forbade her to do," are you excluding this passage from the very day of Pentecost, the birthday of the Christian Church (a week and a half away)?

Dave Benke


This would be a good thread with a good focus text.  I never saw a conflict with women as prophets, but I don't see how it applies to being a pastor. 
Literally, προφήτης and cognates refer to someone who speaks (φημί) before others (πρό). They are the public proclaimers of God's Word. Originally, they referred to interpreting and proclaiming the will of the gods to the people. The idea that they foretell the future, was a later, and perhaps, false understanding of the words. As a public proclaimer, it fits quite well with our understanding of the pastoral function.

this would be part of the discussion.  I've yet to meet a Lutheran pastor that was doing the fortelling, in the manner we to which we are referring.  I just never saw prophet and pastor as synonyms in the text or otherwise.

We used to sing the hymn,"God of the Prophets, Bless the Prophets's Sons" at every pastoral ordination and installation. (TLH, 483)

Peace, JOHN
#14
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 06, 2024, 08:37:55 PM
I don't know how we broke into "confessional" vs. "missional" or "traditional" vs. "contemporary" schools of parish practice.

I have always counted myself committed to all four. My mentor, Arthur Carl Piepkorn, was unquestionably "confessional" in theology. He was "traditional" in theology, so much so that his "Conduct of the Service" pamphlet is the Bible for many of today's " traditional" devotees. He was quintessential "missional" ever since he worked for Walter A. Meier for several years. He incorporated those early Vatican II reforms in effect before his death.

So am I—all four in one!

Peace, JOHON
#15
Quote from: Weedon on May 06, 2024, 06:04:39 PMJohn,

I agree with Rolf. Where do you come up with that? I mean, there is a commonality of Bible-based morality that the LCMS shares in large part with the Southern Baptists, but also with Rome and the East and any traditional Anglican or Presbyterian or Methodist. It's not "distinctively" Lutheran any more than the LC or SC's explanation of the Ten Commandments is peculiar to us.

I think there is some truth in John's worry. Both Reformed and Catholic theology assert control over society. We are wary of that as expressed in Luther's understanding of the two kingdoms.

Peace, JOHN
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