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Messages - ThePaul711

Your Turn / Re: Another One Says: Hold My Beer
July 20, 2023, 12:12:16 AM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on July 19, 2023, 12:53:36 AM
Quote from: ThePaul711 on July 18, 2023, 11:00:44 PM
Interesting that a disgruntled pastor who left the SBC along with his congregation because it wasn't right-wing enough for him is writing about ELCA affairs.

Even more suprising is Dan Skogen didn't pick up on it first.
Actually that isn't interesting at all because it says nothing about content of said person highlighted. You may as well say it is interesting that criticism comes from critics. Why not address the substance?
Because your average ELCA pew-sitter doesn't think God is some pagan goddess who indulges your sexual desires.
Your Turn / Re: LGBTQ and Eschatology
July 07, 2023, 09:58:58 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 10:03:20 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on June 17, 2023, 09:19:22 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 07:56:00 PM
Quote from: Fletch1 on June 17, 2023, 04:52:31 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on June 17, 2023, 04:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on June 17, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
I believe, as others have affirmed, that God created humankind to be male or female.

We believe that God created light to separate the darkness. There was day and night, but there is also the in between times, too, dusk and dawn. We don't just talk about day or night.

We believe that God created the dry land to separate the waters. There was earth and seas, but there are also the in between areas of wetlands: marshes, bogs, swamps. We don't just talk about dry land or seas.

We have creatures, like mosquitoes, that live in the sea and also fly in the air. We have penguins: birds that live in the sea and on land, who can't fly.

God gives a rich variety in the creation that are in between. The civil war football game between the Oregon State Beavers and the Oregon Ducks uses a platypus as a trophy - an animal that looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver. There are people who are in between the male and female spectrums.

What a perverted reply. Sad. Do you have a clue as to how you are perceived by faithful orthodox Christians?

Yup. More than once I've been called a heretic. However, do you disagree with what I've said about the in betweenness that exists in creation? Are there times between light and dark? Are there places between land and sea?

Sure.  After the Fall and Exile from the Garden of Eden there are all sorts of creations.  Doesn't mean that God intended them to be that way prior to the Fall.

Neither does it mean that God did not intend them to be the way they are: beautiful sunrises and sunsets between the light and dark.
Various gender expressions don't negate that humans are a sexually dimorphic species.

As Twitter influencer Billboard Chris loves to say, "There are two sexes, zero genders, and endless personalities."
Your Turn / Re: Redeemed Zoomer
July 05, 2023, 10:29:05 PM
He's already had YouTube conversations with people like Calvin Robinson, Gavin Ortlund, and the like. I assume as he gains more Internet "fame," his real name will probably be revealed.
Your Turn / Re: "We're having a fetus!"
July 04, 2023, 10:17:56 AM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 04, 2023, 10:14:25 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 04, 2023, 02:42:53 AM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 04, 2023, 02:11:45 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 04, 2023, 01:03:52 AM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 04, 2023, 12:16:10 AM
What do you think, should we just accept that there are some things, like abortion, like racism, that are here to stay?

Yes. Sometimes abortions are necessary.
OK. But between those who believe abortions are necessary to save the life of the mother and those who say abortions are necessary in case the mother simply decides she'd rather not have a child now for some reason, can we come to an agreement on what abortions are necessary. And can we protect the lives of the babies when an abortion isn't necessary?

That's pretty much what our Social Statement on Abortion says.
And yet, isn't part of what your Social Statement on Abortion says is that there should be no laws restricting those abortions that are not morally justifiable. That there should be no laws protecting the lives of babies before they are born?

I generally think that your social statement is a good presentation except that it advocates leaving the unborn defenseless.
The US is pretty much an outlier on abortion in the West along with Canada and the Netherlands. Most other nations have a cutoff for elective abortions but with broad exceptions for necessary abortions.
Your Turn / Re: "We're having a fetus!"
July 04, 2023, 09:54:34 AM
As an ELCA member, our Social Statement on Abortion is probably one of the more "conservative" ones written for a Mainline denomination. If you look at the stance of a church like, say, the UCC or the PC(USA), their statement sounds like something Planned Parenthood, NARAL, or an abortion fund could have written sprinkled in with some quasi-Jesusy language.

Our Social Statement decries the morality of elective abortion, while at the same time recognizing the rare tragic circumstances in which one may believe an abortion is absolutely necessary. The drafters of the Statement definitely took a "safe, legal, and RARE" approach to abortion.

Of course, Higgins Road is FAR more progressive than it was 30 years ago; however, the sentiments still stand.
Your Turn / Redeemed Zoomer
July 03, 2023, 11:28:48 PM
Has anyone heard of this Christian YouTube star? Apparently, he's a PC(USA) pew-sitter who is starting an "Operation Reconquista" to take back the Mainline. He's calling for faithful American Christians to either remain in the Mainline or to join or regularly attend a moderate or conservative Mainline congregation in their area.

Here's his YouTube channel:
And the "Reconquista" Map:
Your Turn / Re:
March 19, 2023, 06:26:04 PM
It's a pan-Lutheran group of pastors who were inspired by the theological teachings of Gerhard Forde and his students.
Your Turn / Question About ELCA Congregation Departures
January 08, 2023, 11:39:32 PM
In the 2000s, when the sexuality wars in the Mainline were heating up, you were seeing conservative congregations depart for other denominations.

Before ELCA 2009, the PC(USA) had an underreported sexuality controversy in 2006.

Since the late 90s or early 00s, you saw dozens of PC(USA) congregations depart to join the PCA, which itself is a schismatic denomination which left the mainline Southern Presbyterians.

One thing I did notice, however, is that very few, if any, ELCA congregations post-2009 joined the LCMS. They either joined the already-existing LCMC (itself an ex-ELCA denomination) or formed the NALC.

Why is that? Why did the conservative ELCA congregations not follow the Presbyterian example and join an already-existing conservative denomination?

I was always curious about that.
Your Turn / Re: Once again, in loco parentis
October 18, 2021, 09:53:16 PM
The issue is that many kids desist and/or detransition. It's not a good idea to medicalize gender non-conformity.
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 29, 2021, 05:37:19 PM
Same sex marriage has been legal in Finland since 2014.
The majority Church of Finland is comfortable with that and allows pastors to help such couples.
Those being investigated are not Church of Finland, but the schismatics who have dissented for years and at times broke state laws in doing so.
That may be true, but it's another argument for why state churches shouldn't exist.
Your Turn / Re: Deaths of Despair
July 23, 2021, 05:28:40 PM
Quote from: David Garner on July 23, 2021, 05:26:45 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 23, 2021, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: David Garner on July 23, 2021, 06:42:37 AM
I forgot to mention the "growth" of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton on gay marriage.  Both were against it until the party dragged them to the left.

I'm aware of the view that says "they were always for it, they just thought they couldn't say that politically," but I think mine is the more charitable view.  The other basically says they are liars and cowards.  I merely say they are malleable political actors with a mushy moral center.

Couldn't we also say that they learned some new things over the years that produced a change in thinking? I know that I have; and that such learnings have changed my mind about a number of issues. Both μετανοέω and μεταμελλόμαι are words that indicate a willingness to change and be changed. "Hardness of heart" is a biblical term that indicates an unwillingness to change.

We could. But the thing is, those who say "they were always for it, they just thought they couldn't say that politically," don't say that.
I think Obama was always for gay marriage. If you examine his record as Illinois state senator, it was to the left of how he campaigned in 2008, and to a degree, even in 2012.
Your Turn / Re: Book of Revelation
July 22, 2021, 11:35:29 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I've got evangelical family who buy all the rapture stuff hook, line, and sinker.
Your Turn / Re: Deaths of Despair
July 22, 2021, 11:13:31 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 22, 2021, 05:44:19 PM
That may be. But what I see being given to us by (mainly Democratic) leaders is apocalyptic doom and gloom in the environment and in society. The proposed and demanded solutions would involve a complete deconstruction of society, our economy, our laws, and our way of life. Anything deemed "white" in particular is singled out for repudiation and destruction. Knowing that I am a cause and symbol for everything that is wrong about America (and is there much that is currently held to be good about America?) simply does wonders for my low level, chronic depression.
Democratic policies today are much less liberal than they were in the 1930s-70s.
Your Turn / Re: Coronavirus news
July 22, 2021, 11:11:10 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 22, 2021, 10:50:32 PM
And once again, we are reinforced in the understanding that it is only the unvaccinated who are now getting gravely ill and dying from the virus.
Given that as an actual fact, somebody explain to me excusing the actions of the unvaccinated and those who refuse to take the vaccine.
You do understand of course, not to put too much of a price tag on it, that their care is costing millions of dollars and the financial impact on the families after they die is costing many millions of dollars.
Not to mention that those who get long COVID (and with Delta's potency, long COVID is highly likely) are going to drive up health insurance prices for everyone.
Your Turn / Re: Introduction
July 22, 2021, 02:03:58 PM
Thank you, Pastors. Looks like you guys have quite the lively discussions on here!
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