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Messages - John_Hannah

#1
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 22, 2024, 06:33:32 PM
Quote from: John_Hannah on May 22, 2024, 06:06:37 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 22, 2024, 03:56:24 PMbtw, even a quick search reveals several people in this forum using the phrase about the square root of a dangling participle before and after you were active. Matthew Becker, I believe John Hannah, and several others have used it here,


What in the world are you talking about?    ???

Peace, JOHN
Sorry, my memory must have failed me. I can see how you'd feel insulted. ;)

Not insulted; bewildered.
#2
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 22, 2024, 03:56:24 PMbtw, even a quick search reveals several people in this forum using the phrase about the square root of a dangling participle before and after you were active. Matthew Becker, I believe John Hannah, and several others have used it here,


What in the world are you talking about?    ???

Peace, JOHN
#3
Your Turn / Francis
May 20, 2024, 11:02:22 PM
Francis is concluding his interview with Norah ODonell. For these many years, I have been impressed by his "home town" pastoral approach to the whole church and the whole world. That attitude stood out throughout the interview. I think we can give thanks for such a prominent Christian leader.

Peace, JOH;
#4
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 20, 2024, 09:56:53 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 09:54:44 PM
Quote from: John_Hannah on May 20, 2024, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 05:36:29 PMSeeking the advice of an atheist about theology seems about as wise as asking a blind man to perform brain surgery.  It is clear that we are arguing from different rulebooks -- for you, man's science rules all; for me, it is the Word of God.  You are playing Monopoly; I am playing cribbage.  1 Timothy 1:18-20.

This is all pejoratives that aren't relevant or true.  It's tiresome.  You act like I never believed before, or forgot everything I learned.  Nothing I have said is connected to my atheism.  Throw me back in the believer camp, and I'll say the same thing about Genesis. 

The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.

It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.

Peace, JOHN
I appreciate this. 
Thank you. 


😀😏
#5
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 20, 2024, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 05:36:29 PMSeeking the advice of an atheist about theology seems about as wise as asking a blind man to perform brain surgery.  It is clear that we are arguing from different rulebooks -- for you, man's science rules all; for me, it is the Word of God.  You are playing Monopoly; I am playing cribbage.  1 Timothy 1:18-20.

This is all pejoratives that aren't relevant or true.  It's tiresome.  You act like I never believed before, or forgot everything I learned.  Nothing I have said is connected to my atheism.  Throw me back in the believer camp, and I'll say the same thing about Genesis. 

The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.

It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.

Peace, JOHN
#6
Suppression of immigration is population control at the national level.

Peace, JOHN
#7
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 16, 2024, 11:08:25 AM
Quote from: David Garner on May 16, 2024, 10:04:00 AM
Quote from: John_Hannah on May 16, 2024, 09:09:19 AMDeacon Shelley,

Is the Patriarch of Alexandria the same as the Coptic Orthodox Church? The Coptic Church is centered in Alexandria.

Peace, JOHN

It is not.  The Patriarch of Alexandria is a canonical Orthodox Patriarch in communion with all the others.  The Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is in schism from the Orthodox Church at present, and has been for about 1500 years.  They refused to follow Chalcedon or any of the Councils after Chalcedon.  That schism is probably closer to being healed than any of the others, but I wouldn't say it's particularly close.

As an aside, the Patriarch of Alexandria and the Coptic Patriarch both use the title "Pope," along with the bishop of Rome, and always have.

I suspected such. Thanks.
#8
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 16, 2024, 09:09:19 AM
Deacon Shelley,

Is the Patriarch of Alexandria the same as the Coptic Orthodox Church? The Coptic Church is centered in Alexandria.

Peace, JOHN
#9
Shaw's report makes it convenient to identify an entity which gives us comfort to knock.

Peace, JOHN
#10
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 10, 2024, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: pearson on May 09, 2024, 10:40:10 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on May 09, 2024, 10:17:18 PMI'm more comfortable with the argument that established practice is based more in tradition than on Scripture.  And, while I respect tradition and I think it is reasonable to assume that the Church, as the Body of Christ, has been granted the authority to be establish and to revise traditions.  The challenge is how to exercise that kind of authority for the sake of the Gospel and while acting as the Church.  The latter half of that challenge has been made more difficult because sinful humans have fractured the Body of Christ.


Are we all in agreement here on what the concept "tradition" refers to?  Are "traditions" pretty much the same thing as "customs"?  (I think not.)  Are "traditions" pretty much the same thing as "practices"?  (Again, I think not.)  Does it make much sense to pit "Scripture" against "tradition"?  (Once again, I think not.)  Are these distinctions helpful in advancing our understanding of the theological and spiritual gifts we have been given?  (Well, I think so.)

Tom Pearson 

Tradition cannot be successfully pitted against Scripture. Nonetheless it is well to recall that it was bishops who determined the canon.

The exact practice of setting apart for ministry (or ministries) is only sketched in Scripture, Although in one instance we know that selection was by lottery. We actually rely on tradition (previous practice) for our conduct. For example seminaries, which are not in Scripture at all.
We do practice succession in our presbyteral succession.

Peace, JOHN
#11
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 09:04:01 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on May 09, 2024, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Weedon on May 09, 2024, 07:15:18 PMOf course we do! And all Christians cannot but speak the good news to each other! That's the priesthood of all believers in action. It is not, however, the office of the Holy Ministry, or the Predigtamt, of which, as I said, there is zero example in Scripture of a woman actually preaching.

Although the description of the event is not as dramatic, what the women did was not all that different than what Peter did on Pentecost.  To the extent that there might Scriptural examples of the Predigtamt, it would be Christ calling Paul and Christ commissioning the disciples.  But, Christ also commissioned to women to proclaim the resurrection  And, I'd note that several of the Scriptural references to disciples are not necessarily restricted to the 12 or to men.  Or, could it be that the Predigtamt is based more in the traditions of the early church than in Scripture?

Actual church practice or Bible? Good question. We know that church practice was from clear historical records and as the church grew in the early centuries the practice becomes more developed.

All by itself, the Bible gives, what seems to many Christians, only mere hints or nothing at all about the structure of ministry.

I think we in American Lutheranism would do well to re-set our discussion to include some authority to church tradition on church and ministry.

Peace, JOHN
#12
Your Turn / Re: Women in Ministry
May 09, 2024, 03:33:09 PM
Quote from: Weedon on May 09, 2024, 03:21:04 PMMy wife wears a veil in church. :)

Long ago, mine did also. Everyone did when I was in the seminary. Not long after, the practice fell out of vogue everywhere. Restored now by the traditionalist Latin liturgy folks.

Peace, JOHN
#13
Quote from: Weedon on May 08, 2024, 03:46:50 PMAs tomorrow is the Feast of our Lord's Ascension, a little OP in honor of the day (from The Pilgrim, p. 14ff.)

Now He was going home... In seven words the years of labor and sorrow end: "While they beheld, He was taken up."... There were no bells and banners on earth, but surely all the trumpets on the other side sounded as they never sounded before... Surely the chiming golden bells of heaven sang their welcome, and angel choirs intoned the song of the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdomand strength."... On the anvils of God the nails had been forged into the scepter of a king... "He was taken up"... The angel hosts sweep to either side, leaving the way clear to the Eternal Light that no longer blinds the eyes of us who stand gazing after Him... He leads a procession which comes from the ends of time and space, all the harvest of all the white fields the world has ever known, the pilgrims of the night who come at last to the dawn of an everlasting day... "He was taken up." The Child of the manger, the praying heart on the starlit lanes of Galilee, the hunger in the wilderness, the weariness of the Sychar Well, the tears of the Garden and the Hill, the thirst of the Cross - all over now... The robes of the Transfiguration once momentary, now clothe Him forever, and angels and archangels sound the great doxology of the Waiting Church: "Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever."...

An old story - perhaps too old for us to do more than glimpse its glory... And yet - we ought to remember it more clearly... It was the solemn moment in the story of God and man when the visible Christ became the invisible Christ... From that hour everything concerning Him became visible only to the eyes of faith... The final line of demarcation in the world - between those who believe and those who refuse to believe - was now clear... Men can say that all this is not true and use the mind of man to reject the mind of God, or they can know that God once walked among them and that they now have a Friend in heaven who knows all that earth and time and pain can do to man...

The Ascension did not take Jesus away... It brought heaven near... In the realm in which He now reigns time and space have no meaning... There is no up and down, no near and far, no darkness, and no distance in the world of faith... He is as near as yesterday's prayer, today's joy, tomorrow's sorrow... His homecoming has made heaven a home for us who still walk far from home... Wherefore stand we gazing into heaven?... Our momentary task is here, but through the slow dimming of the years we see the evening lamps of home tended by the pierced hands of Him who has gone to prepare a place for us... Is there a better way to live - or die? ... All that we have to do now is believe and follow:

The lapping of the sea of death before his feet
Crept near; the wind was wild;
But he, who knew the One he came to meet,
Saw it and smiled.

Stepping without a hesitating word
Into the icy tide,
As if he saw the footprints of his Lord
Gleam at his side,

Borne up by Love that gave as he had given,
He crossed the midnight foam
And laid his hand upon the door of heaven
Like one returning home.

(Divine Service tomorrow at St. Paul's at 8:20 a.m. and 7 p.m.)

You can't get any better than O.P. Kretzmann, former President of  Valparaiso University!

Peace, JOHN
#14
Your Turn / Re: Lyman Stone’s Latest
May 08, 2024, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: Dave Benke on May 08, 2024, 11:26:35 AM
Quote from: Mark Brown on May 08, 2024, 10:56:11 AM
Quote from: John_Hannah on May 07, 2024, 07:28:59 PM
Quote from: Mark Brown on May 07, 2024, 07:16:09 PMTwo thoughts.  Lyman's survey makes sense simply because of the school data.  What have we been doing for 1-2 generations? Closing schools. "Too much money." "We can be witnesses in the public school." What have we been doing for 1-2 generations? Shrinking. Not catechizing.

If the LCMS wanted to steal a march, be ahead for once instead of behind, in all these red states that have passed ESAs we'd be funding schools.  You'd get three things hit with one stone.  You could address Concordia enrollment with actual job need. You could address congregational decline.  And you could address catechizing. And you could do it all while at least breaking even. It would be the highest return on investment we'd have since Loehe's sendlinge.

Of course the real problem is convincing the boomers who shut down all the schools who still run the congregations to reverse course and allow it.  Synod Inc should form a skunk-works, bring along any current congregation that wants to survive, and build school systems in every major ESA Red State metropolitan area.

As desirable as this remedy is, I'm afraid there is just not enough money anywhere to fund it.

Peace, JOHN

This is America, there is always money. If there is one thing we always have, it's money. (Look at the millions Michigan came up with in 2 weeks to "save" a Concordia.) The problem is always in Dantean terms insufficient love. Lack of will. Acedia. Leadership that wants the title and the office but not the authority to actually do anything. 

The money is already there.  It's just not in the pocket you want to empty.  There are 17 states that allow for non-public schools including parochial schools to tap into voucher programs, from those states.  Even though to the libertarian segment this is allowing the government into the bookkeeping end of the business (since they allow in most states for the teaching of religion as per the religious affiliation of the school), it's a workable option. 

Secondly, there's the charter option.  The WELS-related Eagle charters teach congregations to do a wrap-around, so the congregation takes the before and after school and adds religion courses.

In either of these options, I think the statistics would show good results for the congregation and its mission to families.

You went to your usual sub-plot, which is the boomers not caring about Lutheran schools, the main plot of which is that boomers are not good for the Missouri Synod.  Outvote them then, outflank them, bring in some new members in the 50 and under category and put them on the congregational boards.  They're not there in abundance, so get some abundance.  Bring in some non-geriatric sheaves.  If you want, fly me out and I'll do a workshop on that process.  I'm qualified because I'm over 75.


Dave Benke

Yes, vouchers can change things for the better. My guess is that the number of states offering vouchers will expand in the future.
#15
Quote from: JoshuaMc on May 08, 2024, 10:10:34 AM
Quote from: Weedon on May 06, 2024, 06:02:16 PMJosh,

Don't you think that distinction (and it's important) is actually built into the Symbols themselves? Clearly top tier: Ecumenical Creeds. Clearly next to top tier: Augustana "the symbol for our time". Clearly the rest of the Symbols: explications of the faith confessed in the Augustana. But I totally get why you'd say that Missouri seems to put them all on par; we don't usually rehearse that distinction. Still, I'd argue, from the Symbols it is intrinsic to them and the later Confessions are somewhat distorted when they are heard as something additional to the AC instead of its explication. And this is even true of the Tractatus, which I take as the flushing out of Melanchthon's rather cryptic Article XIV.

Will,

Totally agreed that the tiering is there. I like your insight that everything else in the symbols should refer back to the Augustana. Things get weird when the epitome or SD are read out of context.


That funkiness is something I'd point to as a Missouri idiosyncrasy. I've had a handful of conversations with Missouri pastor colleagues in which they said something along the lines of "but we really believe in the whole Book of Concord!" The emphasis is on the subscription to the book rather than the fundamentals of the augustana. This is just anecdotal though.

Josh



"That funkiness is something I'd point to as a Missouri idiosyncrasy. I've had a handful of conversations with Missouri pastor colleagues in which they said something along the lines of "but we really believe in the whole Book of Concord!!"

. . . as though non-Missourians actually reject it. It's a bad habit. Lacks the, "best construction" per the Catechism. Could it be that Missourians do not "really believe" the Small Catechism?

Peace, JOHN
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